$0E / $31 XDF Missing transmission parameters.

[1BadAction]

Where is the Desired shift time for the 4L80E masks? I thought these things were supposed to be complete and ready to rock, but it turns out, when it comes to the transmission, the XDF is less complete than the 7060 was!! It runs better in every other way, but if I can't tighten up the slush box shifts, then this 7427 is going to go in the garbage.

[brian617]

Did you do the 7427 swap? Might want to read this.. post 5.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?2826-7427-Rev-limiter-4L80E-question&highlight=billygraves+4l80

[1BadAction]

Yes I have seen that... have never seen people that have problems with it though.

[brian617]

Ok, good. Would stink if that was an in-tunable combo.

[Nasty-Z]

Where is the Desired shift time for the 4L80E masks? I thought these things were supposed to be complete and ready to rock, but it turns out, when it comes to the transmission, the XDF is less complete than the 7060 was!! It runs better in every other way, but if I can't tighten up the slush box shifts, then this 7427 is going to go in the garbage.

All that was needed for all of mine was in the $OE XDF , is this the one you are using ? I have had no problems getting mine to shift as soft as I wanted or rattling your teeth on the 1-2 like I have it now .


Did you do the 7427 swap? Might want to read this.. post 5.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?2826-7427-Rev-limiter-4L80E-question&highlight=billygraves+4l80

FWIW , I have seen this explained and understand the theory , I do not believe it for a second , I run a 1992 4L80E in my '92 SS with the '7427 , many miles , no problems . It was verified for correct operation (as correct as it can be with the shift points modded as I have them) by my trans guy , who has forgot more about these than I can ever hope to know. Just my .02.

TOM

[1BadAction]

What is your base bin? Are you able to adjust shift time? I'm using the advanced OE 250 and it looks like it was stopped half way. the OD is awesome, it has all the adjustments I'd want, but the 80E calibrations are half assed. This is really disappointing because the engine itself runs WAY better, the IAC response and the fueling is extremely accurate. No more idle flare when the truck is put into park, no more windup when you free rev it, and so on... I can't wait to get it on the road and see what kind of MPG I can get out of it.

As far as the force motor dithering... I didn't really want to get into that because I have a feeling theres going to be a pissing match over it, but if it works it works.

[1BadAction]

There is a major issue somewhere... I started to head to work and it hesitated to 1-2 shift when I gave it more than a little bit of throttle, then it immediately went to the shift error tables and bangshifted 1-2 and 2-3. I left it sit and drove the Camaro.

[96lt4c4]

There is a major issue somewhere... I started to head to work and it hesitated to 1-2 shift when I gave it more than a little bit of throttle, then it immediately went to the shift error tables and bangshifted 1-2 and 2-3. I left it sit and drove the Camaro.

Post your bin and let us take a look at it, you really shouldn't have to mess with shift time.

Try this bin, or copy the transmission parameters into your bin. Also what .xdf are you using? The one I have has everything the $0D xdf has.

The "Load Based Pressure Offset vs. TPS vs. Gear" was subtracting a lot of line pressure on all the shifts.

[1BadAction]

Post your bin and let us take a look at it, you really shouldn't have to mess with shift time.

Try this bin, or copy the transmission parameters into your bin. Also what .xdf are you using? The one I have has everything the $0D xdf has.

The "Load Based Pressure Offset vs. TPS vs. Gear" was subtracting a lot of line pressure on all the shifts.


I cut that table WAY back... Maybe something else is fishy, let me do some more testing referencing this BHDF bin, I have the stock BHDF that I will use as a base. Thanks.

[1BadAction]

Post your bin and let us take a look at it, you really shouldn't have to mess with shift time.

Try this bin, or copy the transmission parameters into your bin. Also what .xdf are you using? The one I have has everything the $0D xdf has.

The "Load Based Pressure Offset vs. TPS vs. Gear" was subtracting a lot of line pressure on all the shifts.

Can you give me a screencap of the "line pressure parameters" folder? I think something may be wrong with Tuner Pro...

[Nasty-Z]

I used BJKW as a base for a few .

Something sounds amiss , Wiring / pinout issue ??

TOM

[1BadAction]

I used BJKW as a base for a few .

Something sounds amiss , Wiring / pinout issue ??

TOM
Ran and shifted through all gears + locked up fine with no error codes yesterday evening, just felt soft and slow on the shift... This morning when I modded a few tables it felt like it was going into LHM.

The whole reason to have the desired shift speed is to tighten up the shifts without adding pressure. I might have added 5psi to the shift pressure on the 7060, but the 1-2 shift times are less than half the stock 454SS table. It shifts quick and firm, but doesn't SLAM. The advanced OD does have desired shift speed, but the OE/31 does not. ugh.

Thanks for the ideas, I'm going to triple check pinouts tonight and try another bin. Maybe it has something to do with the $31 bin that I ripped off my memcal.

[96lt4c4]

There is also a table that is used to raise Line pressure in PE. Its all zero's stock. I populated it in the bin I posted.

[Nasty-Z]

Ran and shifted through all gears + locked up fine with no error codes yesterday evening, just felt soft and slow on the shift... This morning when I modded a few tables it felt like it was going into LHM.

The whole reason to have the desired shift speed is to tighten up the shifts without adding pressure. I might have added 5psi to the shift pressure on the 7060, but the 1-2 shift times are less than half the stock 454SS table. It shifts quick and firm, but doesn't SLAM. The advanced OD does have desired shift speed, but the OE/31 does not. ugh.

Thanks for the ideas, I'm going to triple check pinouts tonight and try another bin. Maybe it has something to do with the $31 bin that I ripped off my memcal.

Did you use the pin X over I sent you ? Speedo seeing the correct signal ?

Just some thoughts

TOM

[Fast355]

Ran and shifted through all gears + locked up fine with no error codes yesterday evening, just felt soft and slow on the shift... This morning when I modded a few tables it felt like it was going into LHM.

The whole reason to have the desired shift speed is to tighten up the shifts without adding pressure. I might have added 5psi to the shift pressure on the 7060, but the 1-2 shift times are less than half the stock 454SS table. It shifts quick and firm, but doesn't SLAM. The advanced OD does have desired shift speed, but the OE/31 does not. ugh.

Thanks for the ideas, I'm going to triple check pinouts tonight and try another bin. Maybe it has something to do with the $31 bin that I ripped off my memcal.

If I can find a $OE hack and have a minute I could likely find the tables and add them into the XDF. That being said I do not remember those tables being missing in the $0E .XDF I have.

[1BadAction]

Did you use the pin X over I sent you ? Speedo seeing the correct signal ?

Just some thoughts

TOM

Yes, exactly, checked and double checked, doing it one pin at a time.


If I can find a $OE hack and have a minute I could likely find the tables and add them into the XDF. That being said I do not remember those tables being missing in the $0E .XDF I have.
I'm looking through the OE hack that I have, and I can't find any of these parameters referred to... But that doesn't mean they aren't in another hack somewhere. I appreciate the help.

[brian617]

Look under "4L80e Line Pressure Parameters" "Desired Shift Time Altitude Gain vs TPS vs Shift" is that it? Not sure what the Altitude Gain is for as the table just looks like TPS vs Shift to me.

[96lt4c4]

I don't think that's how the desired shift time works, as far as firming the shifts up. They way I understand it is, "desired" means the computer has to make the shift happen in the amount of time in this table to keep from throwing a code. If the shift does not happen in the desired amount of time then you get an error because the computer thinks the tranny is slipping. I may be wrong but that's how I thought it worked. There is nothing wrong with raising the line pressure to firm the shifts up. Thats what GM does in tow/haul mode in the newer trucks.

[1BadAction]

I don't think that's how the desired shift time works, as far as firming the shifts up. They way I understand it is, "desired" means the computer has to make the shift happen in the amount of time in this table to keep from throwing a code. If the shift does not happen in the desired amount of time then you get an error because the computer thinks the tranny is slipping. I may be wrong but that's how I thought it worked. There is nothing wrong with raising the line pressure to firm the shifts up. Thats what GM does in tow/haul mode in the newer trucks.
Desired shift time is just what it says. If the computer commands 800 millisecond shifts, it is slowing the shift down beyond what the trans is hydraulically capable of, and that makes the shifts feel like a slushbox. When you raise the pressure without cutting the shift time back, it is a firm shift, but its still slow. Just like the newer trucks in tow haul are, which BTW have a LONGER shift time along with the increased pressure.

The trick is to drop it to a reasonable level so 1-2 isn't violently snappy at low TPS, and use a bit of added shift pressure to firm it up.

[1BadAction]

Look under "4L80e Line Pressure Parameters" "Desired Shift Time Altitude Gain vs TPS vs Shift" is that it? Not sure what the Altitude Gain is for as the table just looks like TPS vs Shift to me.
it does, and I might just mess with that table alone and see how it works. 0D has both tables, so not sure whats up with it. :mad1:

[Fast355]

Desired shift time is just what it says. If the computer commands 800 millisecond shifts, it is slowing the shift down beyond what the trans is hydraulically capable of, and that makes the shifts feel like a slushbox. When you raise the pressure without cutting the shift time back, it is a firm shift, but its still slow. Just like the newer trucks in tow haul are, which BTW have a LONGER shift time along with the increased pressure.

The trick is to drop it to a reasonable level so 1-2 isn't violently snappy at low TPS, and use a bit of added shift pressure to firm it up.

Not sure which vehicles are using longer commanded shift times in tow/haul. The 8.1 Express van tune my 4L85E tune is based off certainly does not. Commanded shift times were in the .3 or 300msec range. If you smack down on the throttle pedal a few times it can get to be a somewhat violent upshift. Using stock performance mode line pressure, commanded shift times, and 50% torque management reduction from stock it catches rubber going into 2nd at 50ish mph. 8.1 Van/Suburban Tow/Haul settings work pretty well on a 5.7 that makes more power than stock and hauls/tows a heavy load.

[1BadAction]

Not sure which vehicles are using longer commanded shift times in tow/haul. The 8.1 Express van tune my 4L85E tune is based off certainly does not. Commanded shift times were in the .3 or 300msec range. If you smack down on the throttle pedal a few times it can get to be a somewhat violent upshift. Using stock performance mode line pressure, commanded shift times, and 50% torque management reduction from stock it catches rubber going into 2nd at 50ish mph. 8.1 Van/Suburban Tow/Haul settings work pretty well on a 5.7 that makes more power than stock and hauls/tows a heavy load.

The 4L60 tunes in the half tons. 80E tunes are near perfect around 300 msecs, but the earlier 80s are near 800 + msecs.

[Fast355]

The 4L60 tunes in the half tons. 80E tunes are near perfect around 300 msecs, but the earlier 80s are near 800 + msecs.

That makes sense because even a good running 4.3 can kill the 60E!! 10 years ago I killed a 700r4 with a 2.8 TBI.

[Roadknee]

Desired shift time is just what it says. If the computer commands 800 millisecond shifts, it is slowing the shift down beyond what the trans is hydraulically capable of, and that makes the shifts feel like a slushbox. When you raise the pressure without cutting the shift time back, it is a firm shift, but its still slow. Just like the newer trucks in tow haul are, which BTW have a LONGER shift time along with the increased pressure.

The trick is to drop it to a reasonable level so 1-2 isn't violently snappy at low TPS, and use a bit of added shift pressure to firm it up.

I always thought the computer increased or decreased line pressure via the force motor to target the desired shift time (i.e. adaptive learning). If you can increase pressure but still maintain a slow shift time, what is the computer controlling within the transmission to achieve that desired shift time?

[1BadAction]

That makes sense because even a good running 4.3 can kill the 60E!! 10 years ago I killed a 700r4 with a 2.8 TBI.
LMFAO! Exactly. No love lost with me and 700 based transmissions. I had a "built" 60E shit the bed behind my otherwise stock 4.8 short cab stepside truck 7 months after I installed it. $2500 from an LS1tech sponsor right down the f'n drain.

[Nasty-Z]

Yes, exactly, checked and double checked, doing it one pin at a time.

Speedo seeing the correct signal ?


I had a "built" 60E shit the bed behind my otherwise stock 4.8 short cab stepside truck 7 months after I installed it. $2500 from an LS1tech sponsor right down the f'n drain.

Junk build , period.

I have been the bottom of the 10's with a very stout 700R4 behind a 496 BBC , absolutely no problems .

TOM

[1BadAction]

Speedo seeing the correct signal ?



Junk build , period.

I have been the bottom of the 10's with a very stout 700R4 behind a 496 BBC , absolutely no problems .

TOM

I tend to agree, it had Alto red eagles at 3-4, started to burn then a roller bearing came apart. Local trans shop put it back together with BW clutches and the same hard parts including the modded VB and pump. Ran like a raped ape after, but I never felt like I could trust it again long term. If I had it to do over I would have done an I-6 converter, servo and shift kit on a stock 60E and ran it another 100k miles.

[Fast355]

I tend to agree, it had Alto red eagles at 3-4, started to burn then a roller bearing came apart. Local trans shop put it back together with BW clutches and the same hard parts including the modded VB and pump. Ran like a raped ape after, but I never felt like I could trust it again long term. If I had it to do over I would have done an I-6 converter, servo and shift kit on a stock 60E and ran it another 100k miles.

I wouldn't even go that far with a 700r4 or 4L60E they are JUNK, PERIOD!!! I don't care how much money you spend in them they are still JUNK! I would rebuild a 4L60E by swapping a stock 4L80E into its place. I would trust a 4L80E I pulled out of the mud in the junkyard from a 200K mile work truck before I trusted any 4L60E.

[Nasty-Z]

I wouldn't even go that far with a 700r4 or 4L60E they are JUNK, PERIOD!!! I don't care how much money you spend in them they are still JUNK! I would rebuild a 4L60E by swapping a stock 4L80E into its place. I would trust a 4L80E I pulled out of the mud in the junkyard from a 200K mile work truck before I trusted any 4L60E.

You should tell us how you really feel Chris .......... LOL :popcorn:

TOM

[Fast355]

You should tell us how you really feel Chris .......... LOL :popcorn:

TOM

I have had about 7 different vehicles with them over the years and not a single one of them has survived more than 50K. The 97 Express van I have was my parents when it was new, the stock 4L60E didn't even make it 35,000 miles before it started hard shifting and setting the P1870 code. Ended up rebuilding it to 4L65E specs on their dime and it only lasted until 82K at which point it exploded an input sprag and drum.

I guess that was better than the 545RFEs in my Ram. I cooked one of those in 38K behind my 4.7 Ram, then behind the cammed Hemi I cooked one every 10-15K miles after that. One of them lasted about 3 days. The only one I had survive any length of time at all was a low mileage junkyard pull with a Transgo shift kit and a 30 psi line pressure resistor.

[Fast355]

I displayed my feelings regarding the 4L60E when I pulled the old POS out of the Express for the last time.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff172/Fast355_album/4L60EGONE_zpsc30156c2.jpg (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Fast355_album/media/4L60EGONE_zpsc30156c2.jpg.html)

This is what a 100k mile 4L85E looked like inside. The magnet wasn't even dirty. If the fluid had ever been changed they used an oem filter and pan gasket.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff172/Fast355_album/4L80Einsides_zps99e4d7ab.jpg (http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Fast355_album/media/4L80Einsides_zps99e4d7ab.jpg.html)

[1BadAction]

You should tell us how you really feel Chris .......... LOL :popcorn:

TOM
LOL!

and all I wanted for christmas was a 0E XDF with shift time and TCC apply percentage tables. :laugh:

[96lt4c4]

I have built several 60E's and 700R4's. I have came up with my own build for them combining several different aftermarket companies parts, Sonnax, Alto, Transgo....etc. So far I have never had one fail. The one in my Blazer pulled a 26 foot camper loaded with all our shit and my whole family for an entire summer. Sold the camper, now it pulls my boat and an 18 foot enclosed car trailer. My temps rarely get over 180.

There are ways to make them hold up, most of your every day builders do not take the time to build them right. It takes me several days to blueprint and build a tranny, just like an engine. If you just throw them together they will not last.

I never use Transgo shift kits, junk, I only use their separator plates. The main 2 issues with the 60E is making the 3-4 clutch and the band live. I have figured a combo out that does both. I even tow with mine in Overdrive, while flat out on the interstate.

The 80E is a beast for sure, I am getting ready to build one that is going behind a LS2 408 in a 68 Camaro. The are big heavy mothers though, and eat up more power.

[1project2many]

I have built several 60E's and 700R4's. I have came up with my own build for them combining several different aftermarket companies parts, Sonnax, Alto, Transgo....etc. So far I have never had one fail. The one in my Blazer pulled a 26 foot camper loaded with all our shit and my whole family for an entire summer. Sold the camper, now it pulls my boat and an 18 foot enclosed car trailer. My temps rarely get over 180.

There are ways to make them hold up, most of your every day builders do not take the time to build them right. It takes me several days to blueprint and build a tranny, just like an engine. If you just throw them together they will not last.

I never use Transgo shift kits, junk, I only use their separator plates. The main 2 issues with the 60E is making the 3-4 clutch and the band live. I have figured a combo out that does both. I even tow with mine in Overdrive, while flat out on the interstate.

The 80E is a beast for sure, I am getting ready to build one that is going behind a LS2 408 in a 68 Camaro. The are big heavy mothers though, and eat up more power.

How many transmissions did it take to get the right parts figured out. Most of us don't have time and money to throw at multiple transmission builds for tranny test n tune sessions. The 80E swap becomes a high success rate fix.

[1BadAction]

It's working, but... eh. I changed the pressure vs altitude gain and that seems to quicken up the shift slightly, but it isn't right. I'm on the fence about going back to the 7060, at least it has the correct trans tables, even if the idle and running quality isn't quite as good.

[Nasty-Z]

Well,

Something definitely sounds amiss with what you are experiencing , what ever became of the LHM you experienced ?

Line pressure adjustments as well as the table you mentioned and a couple others made mine shift fine , don't know why yours is not responding ?

TOM

[Roadknee]

I have built several 60E's and 700R4's. I have came up with my own build for them combining several different aftermarket companies parts, Sonnax, Alto, Transgo....etc. So far I have never had one fail.

Care to share your complete build recipe?

[1BadAction]

Well,

Something definitely sounds amiss with what you are experiencing , what ever became of the LHM you experienced ?
That shift speed altitude gain works backwards from what one would expect. When I changed it, that slowed the shift, causing a shift time error and LHM. At least I know the trans works as it should.

I'm making a few changes tonight and running it tomorrow.

[lionelhutz]

I always thought the computer increased or decreased line pressure via the force motor to target the desired shift time (i.e. adaptive learning). If you can increase pressure but still maintain a slow shift time, what is the computer controlling within the transmission to achieve that desired shift time?

Same here. How do you get a firm shift if the pressure is lowered so the clutch pack engages slowly?

[Fast355]

Same here. How do you get a firm shift if the pressure is lowered so the clutch pack engages slowly?

Leave the maximum line pressure value at 90.

Remember on the EPC less current = higher pressure

If you were to unplug the case connector it would default the transmission to maximum line pressure.

[brian617]

I always thought the computer increased or decreased line pressure via the force motor to target the desired shift time (i.e. adaptive learning). If you can increase pressure but still maintain a slow shift time, what is the computer controlling within the transmission to achieve that desired shift time?

Ramping pressure? Added pressure at time of shift? Rather than just a higher steady state pressure. The higher ramping pressure at shift should fill the clutch pack faster.

[96lt4c4]

Care to share your complete build recipe?

I will send you a PM, getting a root canal right now.

[1BadAction]

That shift speed altitude gain works backwards from what one would expect. When I changed it, that slowed the shift, causing a shift time error and LHM. At least I know the trans works as it should.

I'm making a few changes tonight and running it tomorrow.
Shift time has tightened up with additional numbers added to the "altitude gain". Inserted my old base pressure tables and it is close to how it was. 4th and TCC is still a bit loosey goosey but nothing that I can't tune out.

[Nasty-Z]

Shift time has tightened up with additional numbers added to the "altitude gain". Inserted my old base pressure tables and it is close to how it was. 4th and TCC is still a bit loosey goosey but nothing that I can't tune out.

Good to hear Jim . Glad you got it working , you will be pleased in the long run .

TOM

[lionelhutz]

Leave the maximum line pressure value at 90.

Remember on the EPC less current = higher pressure

If you were to unplug the case connector it would default the transmission to maximum line pressure.

That didn't answer the original question I quoted, or the follow-up question I posted.

Basically, the question is how can the adaptive learning lengthen the shift time and firm-up the shift at the same time?

[Nasty-Z]

If you were to unplug the case connector it would default the transmission to maximum line pressure.

Actually the 4L80E with no case connection defaults to 2nd gear and reverse AND full line pressure, although the 4L80E will not make a shift without solenoid control (i.e, a case connection) .

LHM will default to full line pressure but will provide shifts.

Two different scenarios here .

TOM

[96lt4c4]

How many transmissions did it take to get the right parts figured out. Most of us don't have time and money to throw at multiple transmission builds for tranny test n tune sessions. The 80E swap becomes a high success rate fix.

It took 2 from a shop before I learned how to build my own, now I use my knowledge to build them for other people and make money on the side.

[1project2many]

It took 2 from a shop before I learned how to build my own, now I use my knowledge to build them for other people and make money on the side.

Assembling a transmission can be a challenging task so good for you for learning to build them on your own. When it comes to the 60E family I generally stop in at the transmission shop for assistance in parts selection. Sonnax alone has eight pages of parts, kits, and tools for this transmission. There have been many OE and aftermarket updates, upgrades, and changes over the years and I'm certainly not good enough to recognize every situation where a trans should have received one or more upgrades that it didn't get or to recognize an inferior copycat upgrade part when it is installed. It certainly never seems to boil down to a one size fits all recipe. Part of the problem is the truck transmission failure rate. A larger number of failures in a vehicle line leads to a greater number of overhauls / replacements with parts from a number of aftermarket sources. Between that and a growing number of transmission recipes on the 'net you just don't know what you're going to find on teardown. I understand and agree with fast355's lack of love for the '60E and in truck and van applications. I definitely appreciate the availability of the stronger '80E as a one time replacement unit.

[1BadAction]

Update. I re-evaluated my thought process on this and looked at it like this: What is the only thing that changed electrically between 1991 and 1995? The force motor. So, I changed all the tables back to stock, then modified the force motor current table. .075 amp reduction in the middle of the curve tapered off to the same on the high and the low end, and with all the other tables stock it shifts like a stock truck. This is by no means a scientific test but I feel WAAAYYY better about the way it works overall.

From this point I've bumped up some of the shift pressures in the tables to get it back in line with what I had before, and with the same "feel", everything ended up being nearly identical to the tables in my 7060. My plan for the future is to log actual shift pressures vs the commanded "pressure" and adjust the PCS tables to get the two in line, but for right now I'm comfortable with it.