need some insight on a technical issue i have

[RRice]

i have a 1995 GMC rally STX van (G2500 3/4 ton) i had to rebuild the engine and since i was going to be using for some light towing i purchased the comp cam XE249H-12 and had the engine bored to 4.020.. my question is this..will either of these effect the stock tuning?
when i first fire the engine up it's burning so Rich that inside the exhaust pipe tip is nothing but black soot..i monitors the O2 sensor with a DMM and it starts out at around ~ .5 or .6 and climbs to just over .7V before the ecm goes into closed loop.
the idle is really rough and the O2 stays for the most part right at .7V on the high end and bounces down to around .02V on the low end..and still the mixture is rich..

I pulled the vacuum line off the brake booster to try and see if it would lean out with the extra air added..but it was a no go..

which is why i'm wondering if the cam and bore has altered anything..
the only thing i can see in tunerproRT with bin file BJYN is a setting to set CID which if my math is correct would be 44.16(44.28 in tuner pro) but would that be enough to make it run rich?
or is there other things in the ecm that need adjusted?

Thanks Rick

[steveo]

the bore? no that would not affect things in a noticeable way.

the cam? maybe, but not really. that's a pretty small cam. it should run 'ok' on the stock tune, especially once closed loop kicks in.

you can't monitor an o2 sensor's voltage with a multimeter during operation. all the o2 reads is 'rich' or 'lean'. in closed loop it should be switching too quickly to know whats going on, and in open loop, it wont tell you anything (in fact during open loop warmup it will pretty much read 'rich' unless something is wrong).

you need to monitor it with a datalogger or a fairly silent oscilloscope, preferrably the first.

no idea what's going on, need more information and datalog.

[RRice]

Hi thanks for the reply..i posted another thread about not being able to connect tunerpro to my van..the only headway i made was getting it to say that yes there was an interface present and i got it to finally say DA connecting..but that's all it says..it never goes to DA connected..the other post has a bit more about what i've done ..

Really i just need to know the details on how to hookup..from start to finish with no details left out..
aka..do i need the 10k res..and if so when and how do i use it to get into 8192 since this ecm has no 160 i can't use winaldl.

my other post http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?3561-hey-everyone-having-trouble-with-tunerproRT-and-my-16197427-ECM&p=42558#post42558 (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?3561-hey-everyone-having-trouble-with-tunerproRT-and-my-16197427-ECM&p=42558#post42558)

[steveo]

so it's $0D, what is it, a 7427?

8192 baud ecms dont ever need a resistor or magic stuff as far as i know.

try a demo of datamaster instead, if you can't get tunerpro working. if that works, at least you know it's tunerpro config or a problem with your adx or whatever.

[RRice]

Hi again..ok i took your advise and downloaded datamaster ..but unless that program has an automatic detect or something i couldn't get it to connect either and yup $OD 7427 with bin file BJYN.

ok so i don't need the 10k jumper.. will the 8192 line output any data with just the key on without starting the engine.. starting and waiting for closed loop is sucking tank dry lol

[Fast355]

Hi again..ok i took your advise and downloaded datamaster ..but unless that program has an automatic detect or something i couldn't get it to connect either and yup $OD 7427 with bin file BJYN.

ok so i don't need the 10k jumper.. will the 8192 line output any data with just the key on without starting the engine.. starting and waiting for closed loop is sucking tank dry lol

Something is not adding up. I ran a more aggressive cam and TPI heads on the stock tune and it was nowhere near as rich as you state yours is running. In fact even at 14 psi fuel pressure it was lean with any throttle opening at all. I would double check the timing, spec is 0* or TDC with the bypass wire connector disconnected although I have found most like 4-6* BTDC much better. Also check for vacuum leaks, especially the TB base gasket. Finally you should set the minimum air rate aka minimum idle speed so that the IAC itself is a minimal vacuum leak.

[RRice]

what is the process for getting data out of the ecm..is it the following?

Hook the interface to the aldl pin M and pin A(gnd) ..open tunerpro..and start engine..and then click acquire connection..
I have tried starting the engine then hooking up the interface and then starting tunerpro and then acquire connection..actually i think i've tried every which way that i can..
i need to know the exact process so that i can eliminate the hookup process and focus on the connection issue only..


The timing is on 0 used 2 different timing lights since one has an advanced dial which is flaky sometimes..and the other just a straight TL ..both show timing at 0..
it has all new hoses and a new TBI gasket..but i'll pull the carb off and check the gasket just in case ..can't hurt at this point
I'll try and change the timing from 0 to ~4 ~6 and see if that helps any..
i went thru the valve adjustments again,,just in case ..and then checked the cyl pressure on the only cylinders i could get my hose screwed into without breaking my back..which were No 5,6,7,8 all are reading 160Psi... I'd check the others but this van doesn't give a lot of room to move around in there..so for the moment i'll assume they are within this pressure..

on another note my younger bro brought something else to my attention ..i hadn't noticed it until he pointed it out either..ok so this van has been outside for maybe 2 days..to give me more room in the garage to put the motor together....and it rained for those 2 days..and the hood was not on the van..that was about a week ago..once the motor was installed the van got moved back into the garage...now hears where the interesting part is..for the past few days there has been water shooting out the exhaust every time i stomp the gas pedal to something like 1200 to 2000 RPM just a guess on that range..any who..assuming it's not a leaky head gasket..and water had somehow gotten into the manifolds when it rained..i would expect that the water would have been gone after the engine had gotten good and hot..or at the very least would have been gone after 2 days of stomping the RPM up and down..

If this isn't the case then the only other reason i can see for water to be shooting out is a leaking head gasket..but then again if that was the case the temp would go well beyond the 200 degree range and ultimately boil over into the overflow jug lol but that's not happening..dang i just confused myself with yet another odd issue to solve hehe

oh and before i forget..when i pressure checked those cylinders and viewed the plugs they were all black..same soot that was in the tailpipe.
right now i just have straight water as coolant..didn't want to put antifreeze in it until i made sure nothing was wrong..i may have to drain it..put some in..and see if the garage floor turns green where the exhaust tip is..that would at least verify if the head gaskets were at fault..since i can't get into all the cylinders to do a leak down test..
ok i just realized i'm typing my thoughts lol

[steveo]

black sooty plugs from a blown head gasket? nah. blown head gasket shows as a plug being way way cleaner than the rest... (steam clean)

[delcowizzid]

have you tried pin E for data and pin A for earth

[RRice]

Hi this ECM has no pin E.... i kinda wish it did tho..i'm more used to using winaldl.

Steveo you make a good point about the steam cleaning..so the only other conclusion is that there is just a lot of moisture in the exhaust..

i have 2 other ECM's in the garage..a 16168625 and a 16199982 would either of these work as possible substitute to eliminate the ECM as the problem..they both have the same memcal socket as the one in the van now

[RRice]

ok i tried changing the timing..but that didn't help any..it did make it idle a bit faster but still not correctly tho.
carb gasket is good..it past the water bottle spray test..not pulling anything in. i also rechecked all my hoses too
I pulled my DMM back out to verify that i had voltage on pin M..with key on it goes to 5V after turning the key off it stays at 5V for about 5 sec or so then goes to 0V.
so at least there is voltage there..that's about all that test will tell me tho lol

[RRice]

black sooty plugs from a blown head gasket (http://rd.bizrate.com/rd?t=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.partsgeek.com%2Fx5pshqq-volvo-850-head-gasket-set.html%3Futm_source%3Dshopzilla%26utm_medium%3Dp f%26utm_content%3Dwcs%26utm_campaign%3DPartsGeek%2 BShopZilla%26fp%3Dpp%26utm_term%3D1994-1997%2BVolvo%2B850%2BHead%2BGasket%2BSet%2B-%2BElwis%2BW0133-1895154&mid=192248&cat_id=22000200&atom=10681&prod_id=&oid=5442460059&pos=1&b_id=18&bid_type=0&bamt=a5fedf14fd8fec0d&cobrand=1&ppr=45c83f111cb624e9&rf=af1&af_assettype_id=10&af_creative_id=6&af_id=6784)? nah. blown head gasket shows as a plug being way way cleaner than the rest... (steam clean)

went back and yanked all the plugs again to try and get comp readings on the other cylinder and noticed that as i was pulling the plugs out the number 8 plug was a lot cleaner than the others..i'm gonna try and get a pic of the plugs but i don't have much confidence in the camera i'm gonna be using..so hold up for a min and i'll be back with some pics(hopefully) and the compression readings :-)

ok i'm back with the pics first pic is 8,6,4,2 starting from the left and the second pic is plugs 1 ,3,5,7

edit back again :-)
ok i had my lil brother go hookup the comp tester since his hands were smaller than mine..here's the results.

#1 160
#2 150
#3 160
#4 150
#5 160
#6 160
#7 160
#8 150

i think it's safe to rule out compression as well as my thought on the leaky head gasket too..

if i can only get tunerpro to work i can get a little more insight as too whats going on as far as the tune goes..
gonna replace the plug wires with another set..i don't like the color of the current ones anyway hehe

[steveo]

wont connect to aldl + black sooty plugs + runs like shit = running in limp mode?

[RRice]

ok the new plug wires did help a bit..or at least it seems like it did anyway....i'm still wondering about the O2 sensor readings i'm getting from my dmm..the second the ECM goes into closed loop the signal randomly goes from .7V and drops to under .1V ..every time it dips to that low point the motor reacts like it has a miss in it...

Once it's in closed loop i can disconnect the brake booster line and the RPM goes up and steadily goes back down...hook it back up and the RPM goes Down and gradually comes back up..
I know you guys don't think that the DMM is a good way to monitor the O2 sensor..because of the fluctuations in voltage..but if the O2 sensor was bad there would be no voltage since the voltage itself is generated by the O2 sensor itself or if it were locked to a specific voltage ..then a DMM can be used to verify it's functioning..note i didn't say it would show that it's functioning properly but at least show it's active... :-) in my case tho i'm thinking the O2 is defective in some way internally

i tried to get the O2 sensor out to replace it..but the dang thing must be welded in there or something cause all it wants to do is round the edges off the nut.

Limp home mode ... never thought about that since limp home mode completely ignores the O2..or at least i think so anyway.
should there be an error code or something for that..and if it were in LHM wouldn't the engine not respond to the brake booster line being disconnected and reconnected?

sorry guys just tossing idea's as they hit my brain cells hehe

i think my lil bro's 94 GMC sub has the 8192 baud pin M..may catch him after he gets off work tomorrow and see if i can get the aldl to work with his truck..

in the meantime i'm still open for things to try

[Fast355]

Have you checked both ECM grounds, the groundstrap and negative battery cable. The block should be clean not painted where they attach and the connections should be tight. Seen more than one broken ground wire after an engine swap.

[RRice]

well i got up at 6AM this morning at went back at it..and noticed something very odd..without anything hooked to my laptop other than the laptop PS..if i click the "Test for Valid Interface Using Settings " button i get cable found and functional..so it would appear that there is something funky going on in my laptop..if i do this same test without anything hooked to my desktop in the house it fails...i may have to drag my backup system back off the shelf and toss it into the van..

man i sure hope this 2 transistor circuit didn't cause this problem with my laptop...
i added the circuit i used..maybe someone can let me know if this is what caused the problem with my laptop or if the issue has always been there..
but most importantly..is this even the right circuit?

2 web sites list this circuit as being 160/8192 and at least 1 other i found says it's just 160 baud and doesn't mention anything about being 8192 capable

[Fast355]

well i got up at 6AM this morning at went back at it..and noticed something very odd..without anything hooked to my laptop other than the laptop PS..if i click the "Test for Valid Interface Using Settings " button i get cable found and functional..so it would appear that there is something funky going on in my laptop..if i do this same test without anything hooked to my desktop in the house it fails...i may have to drag my backup system back off the shelf and toss it into the van..

man i sure hope this 2 transistor circuit didn't cause this problem with my laptop...
i added the circuit i used..maybe someone can let me know if this is what caused the problem with my laptop or if the issue has always been there..
but most importantly..is this even the right circuit?

2 web sites list this circuit as being 160/8192 and at least 1 other i found says it's just 160 baud and doesn't mention anything about being 8192 capable

I have used that circuit before and it worked well for 160 and 8192. Also built this circuit once and it works as well. The data seems a little cleaner from this setup than the simple 2 transistor arrangement.

http://wbo2.com.au/~techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl8192/8192hw.htm

[RRice]

yeah that's the circuit i used with my Max232 chip altho the cap values are different..i may have to alter the ones that came on the pcb which are SMD type ..and use something more in the range that are on the schematic you supplied..

i'll post back in a few after i figure out why tunerpro v5 won't install on the backup computer..it's a compaq just like the laptop so who knows lol

[RRice]

Does Tuner pro v5 require any .net frameworks to be installed.. if so which one?
or require any other MS installs

i can install v4 but not v5 i get the following error when i open the exe

AppName: tunerpro.exe AppVer: 5.0.8383.0 ModName: tunerpro.exe
ModVer: 5.0.8383.0 Offset: 0005a9cf

i Installed v5.6156 and it runs ok..or at least i'm not getting the error above..

I'll download some of the older builds of V5 and see what happens

Edit: Had to go to 5.00.8202.00
I noticed that in build 5.00.8369.00 he states he went to visual studio 2013..now I'm wondering if he did the project in .net v4 or v4.5 and thats why it won't run the latest build

[RRice]

ok getting closer to resolved i think
i can now get it to say "DA:connected" in blue but then it shifts to red and says "DA:Error " .. and then just bounces back and forth between those 2 it also has an error count that just keeps climbing

I'll try and revers the diode back to the way it was on the schematic originally and see if that's the problem

Edit: the schematic you uploaded has the diode in the wrong direction in order for the circuit to work..changing it around will make the circuit functional..or at least it did for me anyway..i'm still using the same SMD caps that were on the PCB originally..maybe changing the caps to whats on the schematic might make it work as shown .i dun know

[RRice]

ok i went ahead and made a log file anyway..toward the end i had to give a little gas to get it into closed loop..if i took my foot off the pedal completely it would goto open loop so i tried my best to hold it at around 1300 or so..

the O2 is what is freaky it's showing the exact same thing in here that it was showing on my DMM only in tunerpro the voltage has been converted

i'm also curious about the coolant temp it's in C..how can i change that to F

[RRice]

second run waited for it to go into closed loop on its own and never touched the gas pedal does everything here look normal..

[RRice]

followup question.. using A217 $0D TP5 v250.adx and Advanced $0D TP5 v250.xdf along with bin file BJYN_95_G-van_5_7TBI_with_3_42_gears.bin
when i look at the History Table for knock Retard in either files i uploaded the knock always stays at 0

so the question is using the files i mentioned should there be a output for knock or do i have to alter it in some way to get it display it?

or does this mean that the knock sensor could be the culprit

[Fast355]

followup question.. using A217 $0D TP5 v250.adx and Advanced $0D TP5 v250.xdf along with bin file BJYN_95_G-van_5_7TBI_with_3_42_gears.bin
when i look at the History Table for knock Retard in either files i uploaded the knock always stays at 0

so the question is using the files i mentioned should there be a output for knock or do i have to alter it in some way to get it display it?

or does this mean that the knock sensor could be the culprit

With a small cam and an otherwise fresh, factory like engine build there is a good chance you will NEVER see knock activity. The factory tuning is so lame you can add 6-10* of ignition timing to it. To allow your idle speed to drop if your IAC is at 0 counts, you need to adjust the minimum throttle screw on the throttle body to close the throttle plates.

[RRice]

i can't adjust the idle , there's a metal plug over the screw..not sure how to get it out either

[buddrow]

You will have to remove the cup plug to access the idle set screw. Its not hard to do. A good screwdriver or chisel(and a hammer) is all you'll need.

[RRice]

i'll give that a shot..but.. i think i either made things worse..or got closer to the actual issue..or created a new issue..in any case here's whats going on..

I wasn't too sure about the knock sensor i installed because it was just one that was sitting in the toolbox..and the one that was installed in the engine to begin with was also in the same drawer..and just as crudy as the other one lol ..so i may have installed the wrong one
anywho..i drained the water and yanked the knock sensor and measured the resistance on it..it was 3.8k ..i measured the other one and it read 99.7k
so i have no clue which if either is any good.

Edit: ok resolved the which sensor is good question ... the one that measured 3.8k is the good one and the other is toast

[RRice]

ok i tried to knock that idle plug out..all i managed to do was put a lot of deep scratch's all over the carb..so screw that..i did notice something tho when i took the carb off..one of the butterfly's is missing a screw..or has a broken screw...it had to have been like that when i took this engine apart..i have a scrap TBI that has those screws in it..but it looks like both might have some type of thread locker in the threads or something..are those made to come out? or are they a perm fixture

[RRice]

ok knock sensor is all straightened out now....no service lights..aldl is working sorta..it's only data logging at around 1.2 Hz ~3.4Hz with what i assume is data packet errors thru the roof..

I need to change the idle AFR from the time the engine is started to the time it goes into closed loop..
Map is staying in the range of about 30 to 50 or so..BLM is rock bottom at 104 and as low as 99..it says Desired AFR is 13.7 or 13.8 i need that to be right at 14.7 or only slightly Rich from that..what table or scaler do i adjust for this?

[Fast355]

ok knock sensor is all straightened out now....no service lights..aldl is working sorta..it's only data logging at around 1.2 Hz ~3.4Hz with what i assume is data packet errors thru the roof..

I need to change the idle AFR from the time the engine is started to the time it goes into closed loop..
Map is staying in the range of about 30 to 50 or so..BLM is rock bottom at 104 and as low as 99..it says Desired AFR is 13.7 or 13.8 i need that to be right at 14.7 or only slightly Rich from that..what table or scaler do i adjust for this?

Open loop vs vac vs rpm is where i would start. Most stock engines are 35 ish at idle.

[RRice]

Idle VE vs. MAP vs. RPM? that's the only thing i can find that's even close to what you mentioned

[RRice]

ok i got all my issues solved.. the data error was caused by the default setting in device manager for the com port being 9600 .
after changing it to something higher than that it works fine now with no errors.

I got my idle BLM to stay at 126 in open loop..RPM eventually makes it was down to about 700 or so.. i can live with that for now.

Now i just need to figure out how to make tuner Pro work with a printer port..if it's even possible that is lol

thanks everyone for ya help and idea's..it was all helpful in finding and resolving the issues