Need guidance GM TBI install 1228747

[jlsmith]

Recently installed TBI unit in 83 Jeep CJ-7... Complete donor engine and TBI system from a 89 GMC G3500 Box Van.. ECM 1228747

Got it running after setting initial timing with bypass unhooked. Plugged bypass back up and it surged on idle. After checking several things I unplugged MAP and it idled much better. Checking senor with vacuum pump and referencing against chart (inHg/Volts) it functions properly.

[dave w]

Recently installed TBI unit in 83 Jeep CJ-7... Complete donor engine and TBI system from a 89 GMC G3500 Box Van.. ECM 1228747

Got it running after setting initial timing with bypass unhooked. Plugged bypass back up and it surged on idle. After checking several things I unplugged MAP and it idled much better. Checking senor with vacuum pump and referencing against chart (inHg/Volts) it functions properly.

Maybe you can record and post a TunerPro RT data log .xdl file of the TBI engine running for us to look at?

dave w

[EagleMark]

So it's a complete TBI System on a Jeep engine or the complete GM engine transplant? What size engine.

Unplugging MAP and it runs better is not good? With MAP unplugged, MAP kpa goes max and adds fuel. So check fuel pressure.

MAP hose should be plugged into hose barb between fuel lines on back of TBI. (Just checking it's in right spot)

[drowning in tbi]

I would check manifold vacuum with a gauge, if it's below 17", look for anything that would make it low-proper timing marks, vacuum leaks, restricted exhaust etc... How many miles on this engine? Possible late cam timing.

[jlsmith]

21-22" at about 750-800 RPM... No vacuum leaks.. Timing looks correct, set initial timing with bypass unplugged to 0 degrees. Turned engine off plugged bypass back up, cranked backup and ECM to over, which advanced to 12-13..?? don't recall actual number but was right according to documentation. Don't have complete exhaust on yet.. just headers, so there shouldn't be any restrictions. I don't know how many miles this engine has because it was a GM Performance replacement from the donor vehicle. The transmission had went out for the second time so the guy just parked it. He thought there was like 30-40K miles on the engine. I did measure the bore several years ago when I got it and it showed virtually no wear.

What do you mean by possible late cam timing?

[jlsmith]

So it's a complete TBI System on a Jeep engine or the complete GM engine transplant? What size engine.

Unplugging MAP and it runs better is not good? With MAP unplugged, MAP kpa goes max and adds fuel. So check fuel pressure.

MAP hose should be plugged into hose barb between fuel lines on back of TBI. (Just checking it's in right spot)

I installed a complete 5.7L GM Motor and fuel/spark management system ecm (1228747 not 1227747) from a 89 GMAC G3500 Box Van.

The MAP Sensor tube is plugged into the middle vacuum line in the rear of the throttle body. I will have to check the fuel pressure, currently don't have provisions for that right now, but will this weekend.

I did eliminate all the EGR Controls from this setup. I did leave the EGR Valve bolted up until I can obtain a block off valve. Also I didn't plug in the knock sensor but did leave ESC hooked up to the system. Will any of this effect anything.

[Fast355]

I installed a complete 5.7L GM Motor and fuel/spark management system ecm (1228747 not 1227747) from a 89 GMAC G3500 Box Van.

The MAP Sensor tube is plugged into the middle vacuum line in the rear of the throttle body. I will have to check the fuel pressure, currently don't have provisions for that right now, but will this weekend.

I did eliminate all the EGR Controls from this setup. I did leave the EGR Valve bolted up until I can obtain a block off valve. Also I didn't plug in the knock sensor but did leave ESC hooked up to the system. Will any of this effect anything.

Yes it definately will throw things off.....The HD TBI setups were also open loop idle which the headers can affect the idle mixture.

[EagleMark]

I Also I didn't plug in the knock sensor but did leave ESC hooked up to the system. Will any of this effect anything.Yes, hook up the knock sensor. With it disconnected it usually creates a constant knock count and thus knock retard, so your loosing advance timing for no reason.

With O2 sensor also disconnected means this system is running Open Loop, just what is programmed into ECM. Should be plenty rich. So disconnecting MAP just makes it richer, but in your case makes it run. So I'm still thinking low fuel pressure. Or maybe there is a wiring issue or collapsed vacuum hose from MAP sensor to TBI?

[jlsmith]

Fast355, So are you saying the HD TBI setup it will never go into closed loop at idle then revving engine up even at normal operating temp.

EagleMark, I will hook up the knock sensor, thanks.. I downloaded WINADL and see the knock signal.. What is normal count (0)? What is normal advanced timing? I temporally installed the O2 Sensor up in a section of pipe below the header collector. When should I see a closed loop situation what is the criteria. I will absolutely check fuel pressure this weekend.

Thanks to all for the help.. You guys are awesome.

[jlsmith]

Maybe you can record and post a TunerPro RT data log .xdl file of the TBI engine running for us to look at?

dave w

Don't have TunerPro RT.. I do have WINADL will that work.. Not sure that I need to do any tuning yet because it is all original engine with original fuel/spark system.

[dave w]

Don't have TunerPro RT...:mad1:

In it's day WinALDL was a good tool. TunerPro RT is more than a tuning tool, TunerPro RT is an AWESOME Diagnostic Tool!:thumbsup:

dave w

[jlsmith]

:mad1:

In it's day WinALDL was a good tool. TunerPro RT is more than a tuning tool, TunerPro RT is an AWESOME Diagnostic Tool!:thumbsup:

dave w

thanks I will check it out.. Do you burn your own chips or do use a EEProm setup?

[dave w]

thanks I will check it out.. Do you burn your own chips or do use a EEProm setup?

I have the ability to UV Erase and Burn the original EPROM chips. I have modified ECM's for EEPROM's (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?172-7747-Flash-Chip-Conversion-%2827SF512%29). I also own an Ostrich 2.

dave w

[EagleMark]

Fast355, So are you saying the HD TBI setup it will never go into closed loop at idle then revving engine up even at normal operating temp.

EagleMark, I will hook up the knock sensor, thanks.. I downloaded WINADL and see the knock signal.. What is normal count (0)? What is normal advanced timing? I temporally installed the O2 Sensor up in a section of pipe below the header collector. When should I see a closed loop situation what is the criteria. I will absolutely check fuel pressure this weekend.

Thanks to all for the help.. You guys are awesome.It may go into CL if the engine is totally warmed up and revved up for awhile, but will soon go back OL. It will/should go CL after warmed up and driving. In the TunerPro Data Acquisition file there is a Loop Status bit that will change to Closed when this happens.

Knock counts on these old ECM does not always start at 0, so when looking just see that it is not moving, adding counts as engine runs. It may start at 1 or 79 or? It's an accumulator more then a counter.

There is no Spark Advance in the data stream of this ECM.

Here's the info thread for the 1228747 ECM with files needed for TunerPro RT, also some wiring diagrams and stock chip/bin files
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?521-1228747-ECM-Information-4F

[dave w]

Attached is a TunerPro RT screen shot of a bad VSS. Look at the erratic MPH chart vs. the engine RPM chart vs Injector pulse width (milliseconds). Classic smoking gun diagnosis on a bad VSS.
Based on price, there is not a comparable diagnostic tool that can provide as much useful technical information for such a low cost! :jfj: Ok, the only possible downside to TunerPro RT is needing a good laptop computer, which are abundant and low cost also.

dave w

[jlsmith]

It may go into CL if the engine is totally warmed up and revved up for awhile, but will soon go back OL. It will/should go CL after warmed up and driving. In the TunerPro Data Acquisition file there is a Loop Status bit that will change to Closed when this happens.

Knock counts on these old ECM does not always start at 0, so when looking just see that it is not moving, adding counts as engine runs. It may start at 1 or 79 or? It's an accumulator more then a counter.

There is no Spark Advance in the data stream of this ECM.

Here's the info thread for the 1228747 ECM with files needed for TunerPro RT, also some wiring diagrams and stock chip/bin files
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?521-1228747-ECM-Information-4F

I looked at the thread with the information on the 1228747 ECM.. I didn't see the bin file that I have (AKWC). I downloaded TunerPro RT but have no idea where to start. At this point I just want to monitor what I have. HELP.. I did get a chance to check fuel pressure and it was 11 psi. According to Mitchell 9-13 is ok.

[jlsmith]

Maybe you can record and post a TunerPro RT data log .xdl file of the TBI engine running for us to look at?

dave w

7123
Here is a log file with engine running idle. Hopefully it can tell you guys something that you can share with me. I'm at a loss at this point in what to do.

[dave w]

7123
Here is a log file with engine running idle. Hopefully it can tell you guys something that you can share with me. I'm at a loss at this point in what to do.

If possible, to help us save time, please post the .ads / .adx file you are using with the posted .xdl file. Posting the .bin file your currently using is very helpful also.

dave w

[dave w]

7123
Here is a log file with engine running idle. Hopefully it can tell you guys something that you can share with me. I'm at a loss at this point in what to do.

I looked at the data log. It seems the O2 sensor voltage stays close to about .430 VDC, for the entire data log. Flat out, that is not normal behavior for an O2 sensor when the engine temperature is above 160 F!

The Battery voltage started real high, slightly about 15.2 VDC, and at the end of the log, was about 12.5VDC.

The MAP sensor seems OK.

dave w

[jlsmith]

If possible, to help us save time, please post the .ads / .adx file you are using with the posted .xdl file. Posting the .bin file your currently using is very helpful also.

dave w
Dave, I used the adx file that Mark posted here http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?521-1228747-ECM-Information-4F
file $4F-1228747-HD-V1.1.adx (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=1514&d=1327271080).. The bin file that is on the prom is AKWC.. which I didn't see on the list that Mark posted.

I didn't note this but the log file that I posted was an attempt at running engine at idle, but wouldn't so there are many restarts. It would only run for a few minutes.

[dave w]

Data log analysis is time consuming, having the files ready to download is greatly appreciated and saves time.

I'm not with the vehicle, I'm looking at a data log only. I can see the restarts in the data log, the MAP Kpa goes to 100 and the RPM go to ZERO. I can see the battery voltages are not correct. I can see the O2 sensor voltage is running flat line, which is not correct. I can't see the injector spray pattern. Are both injectors spraying the same pattern? I can't see the fuel pressure in the data log. I think testing the fuel pressure is a good plan. I can't look at the distributor cap, distributor rotor, spark plugs, or wires.

The basics, fuel, air, and spark will keep the engine running. For the moment I'm suspect of the fuel pump losing fuel pressure because it could be on it's last legs. I'm suspect of the injectors quit spraying fuel because the computer injector driver is overheating and stops turning on the injectors. I'm suspect that the ignition module is faulty and stops sending the RPM signal to the computer. I'm thinking the engine dies because it's losing fuel or spark. Maybe the wiring is old and has corrosion causing bad electrical connections on the injectors, distributor, or ignition coil? A good visual assessment of everything is a good plan.

If the vehicle was in my shop, I'd walk over to my known good spare parts and swap parts to see what happens. I even have a fuel cell to use instead of the vehicle fuel pump. No everyone has spare parts like I have to troubleshoot problems with.

dave w

[jlsmith]

thanks for your input.. Things for me to check out. Yeah I don't have any spare parts laying around to be swapping out. I checked the fuel pressure and it was at 10-11 psi.. I know form what the service manual for that engine it should be between 9-13 psi. Just as a test to see what would happen a clamped off the return fuel line and supply pressure went up to 15 psi. This didn't seem to make a difference in the way it was running. What are your thoughts on that. I will start looking double checking connections and ignition components. Thanks for the help..

[dave w]

thanks for your input.. Things for me to check out. Yeah I don't have any spare parts laying around to be swapping out. I checked the fuel pressure and it was at 10-11 psi.. I know form what the service manual for that engine it should be between 9-13 psi. Just as a test to see what would happen a clamped off the return fuel line and supply pressure went up to 15 psi. This didn't seem to make a difference in the way it was running. What are your thoughts on that. I will start looking double checking connections and ignition components. Thanks for the help..

For the moment, lets consider the fuel delivery system adequate. I'm still thinking the injector spray pattern needs to be checked.

The system voltage is something that should be looked into. I think having the alternator bench tested is a good plan. Many parts stores where I live will bench test an alternator, usually without a fee.

What parts, if any have recently been replaced?

dave w

[jlsmith]

I can explain the system voltage. I don't have the alternator hooked up so the over voltage is a result from the charger hooked up. I will get the alternator hooked up to remove this issue.

As far as the injector spray pattern, I can see the pattern but not sure how it should look. Is there a test procedure for this?

I started this Jeep restoration 6 years ago and it has been on hold about 4 of those years. I did rebuild the throttle body at one point. I recently but on new plugs and wires and I replaced the MAP Sensor to try to eliminate the idle issue, didn't make a difference.

[92TBIVentura]

You can use a timing light to check the spray pattern, look for a nice cone shape pattern.

[jlsmith]

For the moment, lets consider the fuel delivery system adequate. I'm still thinking the injector spray pattern needs to be checked.

The system voltage is something that should be looked into. I think having the alternator bench tested is a good plan. Many parts stores where I live will bench test an alternator, usually without a fee.

What parts, if any have recently been replaced?
dave w

Dave, Well I replaced the Cap, Rotor and Coil.. and it still surges/hunts at what is supposed to be idle. When I look at the timing during this time it fluctuates from about 12-15 degress advanced. When it gets warmed up it won't stay running (runs for a few minutes and shuts off) it will fire right back up and continues doing the same. The fuel pressure is about 13-14 psi. The injectors seem to be spraying the same and is a cone shape pattern. I got the alternator hooked up so the voltage issue should be resolved. Is there a way to monitor cylinder firing, that would be helpful.

The ECM that I have is a 1228747 with bin code AKWC... I couldn't find that bin anywhere to load into TunerPro. Was doing a search and came accross this forum http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/general-discussion/performance/tbi-tuning-87-95-obd-i-ecm-pcm/473686-data-logging-ecm-1228747-a.html that had your fingerprints all over it. Do you know where I can get this bin, does it really matter or can I use what I was using when I data logging some information that you looked at for me?

[dave w]

Dave, Well I replaced the Cap, Rotor and Coil.. and it still surges/hunts at what is supposed to be idle. When I look at the timing during this time it fluctuates from about 12-15 degress advanced. When it gets warmed up it won't stay running (runs for a few minutes and shuts off) it will fire right back up and continues doing the same. The fuel pressure is about 13-14 psi. The injectors seem to be spraying the same and is a cone shape pattern. I got the alternator hooked up so the voltage issue should be resolved. Is there a way to monitor cylinder firing, that would be helpful.

The ECM that I have is a 1228747 with bin code AKWC... I couldn't find that bin anywhere to load into TunerPro. Was doing a search and came accross this forum http://www.fullsizechevy.com/forum/general-discussion/performance/tbi-tuning-87-95-obd-i-ecm-pcm/473686-data-logging-ecm-1228747-a.html that had your fingerprints all over it. Do you know where I can get this bin, does it really matter or can I use what I was using when I data logging some information that you looked at for me?

I'm thinking one possible cause for the engine shutting down after the engine warms up is an electrical component is overheating. Maybe the ignition module inside the distributor is overheating? Maybe an injector driver inside the computer is overheating?

Data logging with AKWC is fine. If / when, the need arises to change the AKWC .bin file, it appears the original chip will have to read. I can't find a copy of AKWC in my library, or the gearhead-efi.com library.

dave w

[jlsmith]

Update:

Found a 1227747 ECM w/ASDU bin at local Salvage Yard so couldn't pass it up. I know there is a lot more support for this ECM so thought it was a good thing, especially for 35 bucks.

So, I came home found the bin here on the site (ASDU) downloaded it along with $42-1227747-V5.2.adx and loaded into TunerPro. I would like some one to take a glance at the three attached log files and see if there are any issues. I'm sure there are. Hope that I'm going in the right direction to at least get this engine running. After the second run I went back and performed the IAC check and then adjust the idle screw a little to increase idle rpm.

Dave, I think by swapping the ECM out it made a difference and seems to run better.

[dave w]

I have mixed thoughts about the 1227747 vs 1228747. I like the expanded spark and timing tables used in the 1228747. There have been huge improvements in the 4F .adx / .xdf in recent years which is REALLY helpful. The 1228747 was mostly used with a TH400, so that's a plus for some vehicle applications.

I don't have time at the moment to look at the data logs. Maybe tomorrow I can reply back.

dave w

[EagleMark]

The only thing that the 1227747 ECM has over the 1228747 is the amount of time dedicated to the dissasembly of the 1227747 and then all that work put into the 1227747 $42 TunerPro RT .XDF file. There are many parameters that $42 has in the .XDF that the 1228747 $4F does not.

Probably due to vehicles available with the 1227747... the 1228747 $4F is just rare compared to $42. With time invested it could be as good or better!

[EagleMark]

Is there a reason one of the mods made this a sticky? I don't see the purpose?