Looking for 2012 5.3 liter E38 Connector Pin Out

[dave w]

I'm needing help with finding the E38 connector pin out for a 2012 GM 5.3 liter Pickup.

Thanks

dave w

[mecanicman]

I can offer you 2009 which SHOULD be the same, but thats as far as my information currently goes. Pm me an email address if you want it and Ill send it to you in pdf.

[S10LS]

I have them. Trying to load them up.

[S10LS]

try these

[dave w]

try these

That looks great for the X2 (Gray) connector!

Hope you can post the X1 (Black) connector?

dave w

[S10LS]

Trying. I cant stand Alldata sometimes. And I am not sure about how accurate alldata is.

[S10LS]

This should be it.

[dave w]

This should be it.

Thank you!:thumbsup:

I was able to get some Alldata schematics at my local library, but I could not find the connector pin outs.

dave w

[dave w]

Thank you!:thumbsup:

I was able to get some Alldata schematics at my local library, but I could not find the connector pin outs.

dave w

The attached .pdf has the Alldata schematics I printed from my local library.

dave w

[brian617]

You get the info you needed Dave? Have ShopKey/Mitchell here if you still need.

[dave w]

You get the info you needed Dave? Have ShopKey/Mitchell here if you still need.

I think I'm doing OK. This weekend is when I get my hands dirty with the actual wiring. So far the wire colors and pin outs match the harness. I seem to favor the Mitchell Manual diagrams (before 2002 anyway), so it would awesome if you could post the Michell ECM diagram.

I'll post up more schematics I got today that should help someone wanting to set up a 2012 harness for stand alone.

dave w

[dave w]

More schematics.

dave w

[brian617]

Dave, I've tried to figure out a way to post those diagrams but it seems if ShopKey is protected from duplicating, or I'm just too stupid to figure it out lol. Sorry.

[dave w]

I'm adding the data Link Schematics. See attached.

I have two questions:

What is the Data Link Resistor?

If a module, like the Body Control Module, is removed from the vehicle ... Is a Data Link Resistor still needed?

dave w

[Buzz]

Not to worry ... in a Hot Rod / custom application the E38 provides this to the CAN Bus network.

As an example, you can bench read an E38 with tuning software, without issue.

Try connecting to just a TCM (T42 / T43 / T76) without an ECM on the CAN Bus network - doesn't seem to work, does it ?

Now, bridge the CAN Bus lines with a 120 ohm resistor, and try reading the TCM on its own again - son of gun, the tuning software will now read the TCM.

The CAN Bus communications protocol requires 120 ohms resistance (a.k.a. - Data Link Resistor).

[dave w]

I have new questions about the E38 wiring. It appears the E38 dual fan wiring is almost identical to the '0411 dual fan wiring. I'm wondering why the diodes are installed. I'm also wonder if anyone has a part number for the dual fan diodes. I'm thinking the diodes are for circuit isolation?

dave w

[pmkls1]

Dave, after looking at that schematic I can tell you that the diodes are either integral to the fuse block OR the more likely possibility is that they plug into the fuse block like standard blade fuses. I have seen many later model fuse blocks that have diodes in them. I don't have a part # for you, but you can salvage lots of them from various later model GM fuse blocks. I more than likely have a few of them in my toolbox that I'll take a pic of later when I head down to the basement. The purpose of the diodes is to isolate the two fan circuits from each other so that the ecm can turn on fan1 on a low speed with one output and turn on both fans on at full speed with a second. Without getting all crazy with a drawn-out explanation, the diodes are crucial to proper operation with that particular wiring and solenoid configuration.

On a related note, I do have a little bit to add on your other threads pertaining to this same project that you're working on. It will take me a while to type up those posts though, so it will be later in the day before I can reply to those topics.

Hope I was helpful,
Phil

[dave w]

I was looking through the harness for the Transmission Control Module (TCM) plug, then I learned that the TCM for the 6L80E is inside the transmission ... the internet is usually a good source for information? It might seem odd to some members that I did not know where the 6L80E TCM was.:rolleye: My main role in this conversion is wiring and the computer flash (the fun stuff:thumbsup:).

dave w

[Buzz]

... the TCM for the 6L80E is inside the transmission ...

Yes sir ... 6L80/90 TCM connector looks like this ...


70127013

[brian617]

I was looking through the harness for the Transmission Control Module (TCM) plug, then I learned that the TCM for the 6L80E is inside the transmission ... the internet is usually a good source for information?

dave w

Makes it a pain in the ass when replacing a bad transmission. Have to haul truck to dealer to get replacement trans/TCM flashed so it will communicate with ECM.

[Buzz]

The T43 actually isn't too oppressive to work with. The newer ECMs (E38 / E67 / E78 / E83 / E92) need a GM dealer / TIS flash if replaced - as tuning software cannot read / write the throttle control portion (second core) of the ECM.

The T42 / T43 / T76 TCMs can be completely reflashed using tuning software - making them a little more user friendly.

[dave w]

I've noticed some "brake" related pins in the E38 computer.

The pins I have questions about are on the X1 connector (Black 73 pin connector):
X1 - 26 Brake Apply
X1 - 42 Brake Apply
X1 - 54 Brake Apply

Are the above pins inputs / outputs from ABS? Are the above pins inputs / outputs from somewhere other than the ABS?

The other pin I have a question is:
X1 - 09
I'm thinking this is from the brake switch and in a Normally Closed input to the E38 computer?

Thanks,
dave w

[Buzz]

I've noticed some "brake" related pins in the E38 computer.

The pins I have questions about are on the X1 connector (Black 73 pin connector):
X1 - 26 Brake Apply
X1 - 42 Brake Apply
X1 - 54 Brake Apply

Are the above pins inputs / outputs from ABS? Are the above pins inputs / outputs from somewhere other than the ABS?

I believe that these are generally not used with E38 non-Hybrid trucks. Hybrid uses pin 54 for fan control. V6 trucks (E37 ECM) does use these pinouts.

Can you post the schematics your question is based on ?



The other pin I have a question is:
X1 - 09
I'm thinking this is from the brake switch and in a Normally Closed input to the E38 computer?

Thanks,
dave w

Gen IV brake input logic is the opposite of Gen III.

Gen III PCM receives 12 volts when the brakes are NOT applied - and this circuit is interrupted when the brakes are applied - a Normally Closed circuit.

Gen IV ECM / TCM receive 12 volts when the brakes ARE applied - and this circuit is interrupted when the brakes are released - a Normally Open circuit.

[dave w]

I believe that these are generally not used with E38 non-Hybrid trucks. Hybrid uses pin 54 for fan control. V6 trucks (E37 ECM) does use these pinouts.

Can you post the schematics your question is based on ?

I do not have schematics, I'll need to research (visit my local public library) for the schematics.

dave w

[Munchies]

alldatadiy.com or eautorepair.net/
Should have any and all diagrams you need

[dave w]

alldatadiy.com or eautorepair.net/
Should have any and all diagrams you need

Agreed!

My local public library has alldata online at the outrageous price of FREE!:thumbsup:

The .pdf files I attached earlier in this thread are from the pages I printed at my local public library.:thumbsup:

I admit, I have a 14 mile round trip (freeway speeds mostly) to get to / from the library. Not exactly free.

dave w

[Munchies]

Ah!. Makes sense!.
If you need anything I have alldata and all of the domestic disks here.

[pmkls1]

I know it's been a while since I posted about the diodes, but I've not had much time for anything lately. I'm not sure if you found any more info on the diodes either, but here are a couple pics I took of one that I dug out of the toolbox. There are different ones and this one is for an A/C system IIRC, but this will give you an idea what they look like.

7021 7022 7023

[dave w]

The pins I have questions about are on the X1 connector (Black 73 pin connector):
X1 - 26 Brake Apply
X1 - 42 Brake Apply
X1 - 54 Brake Apply



I have learned there is a Brake Pedal Position Sensor.
X1 - 26 Brake Apply ~ Yellow wire Circuit 5361
X1 - 42 Brake Apply ~ Brown wire Circuit 5360
X1 - 54 Brake Apply ~ White wire Circuit 5359

I will need to disable the both P057C and P057D Brake Pedal Position Low / High.

I was not able to find a schematic for connector X1 - pin 09 brake switch.

dave w

[dave w]

I know it's been a while since I posted about the diodes, but I've not had much time for anything lately. I'm not sure if you found any more info on the diodes either, but here are a couple pics I took of one that I dug out of the toolbox. There are different ones and this one is for an A/C system IIRC, but this will give you an idea what they look like.

7021 7022 7023

Found some Delphi part number 12135037 diodes at Mouser http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Delphi-Connection-Systems/12135037/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvlX3nhDDO4AD%2fgaO9oHV5ePxMpF%252bQT Kos%3d

dave w

[Munchies]

I have learned there is a Brake Pedal Position Sensor.
X1 - 26 Brake Apply ~ Yellow wire Circuit 5361
X1 - 42 Brake Apply ~ Brown wire Circuit 5360
X1 - 54 Brake Apply ~ White wire Circuit 5359

I will need to disable the both P057C and P057D Brake Pedal Position Low / High.

I was not able to find a schematic for connector X1 - pin 09 brake switch.

dave w

Give me a year and model I will go for a quick dig.

[pmkls1]

Dave,

Glad you found what you needed for the diodes. As for your need for info on circuits I have a suggestion that may be of great assistance. You can actually buy a trial subscription to the GM Service Information database. It costs $20 for a 3 day subscription and given the nature of your project I feel that it is well worth it. If you were simply needing a couple wiring diagrams then $20 might be a little steep, but the intensity of your project warrants the cost IMHO. The amount of knowledge that you can obtain can prove quite invaluable because, aside from being able to view and print any and every diagram that you need, you can also view a detailed description and operation of any and all systems of the vehicle. The trial subscription gives you unrestricted access to all sections of SI so you can access any info that is available there. I have used the trial subscription once before when I needed some detailed repair info for a couple of my vehicles after my former employer had finally removed me from the GM system. I'll attach a link to the site where you can purchase the subscription and access everything. https://www.acdelcotds.com/acdelco/action/subscribehome

HTH,
Phil

[dave w]

Give me a year and model I will go for a quick dig.

2012 Silverado 4WD 5.3 Liter VIN 1GCRKSE77CZ259538

dave w

[dave w]

Dave,

Glad you found what you needed for the diodes. As for your need for info on circuits I have a suggestion that may be of great assistance. You can actually buy a trial subscription to the GM Service Information database. It costs $20 for a 3 day subscription and given the nature of your project I feel that it is well worth it. If you were simply needing a couple wiring diagrams then $20 might be a little steep, but the intensity of your project warrants the cost IMHO. The amount of knowledge that you can obtain can prove quite invaluable because, aside from being able to view and print any and every diagram that you need, you can also view a detailed description and operation of any and all systems of the vehicle. The trial subscription gives you unrestricted access to all sections of SI so you can access any info that is available there. I have used the trial subscription once before when I needed some detailed repair info for a couple of my vehicles after my former employer had finally removed me from the GM system. I'll attach a link to the site where you can purchase the subscription and access everything. https://www.acdelcotds.com/acdelco/action/subscribehome

HTH,
Phil

Hi Phil,
Thank you very much for the link!:thumbsup:

dave w

[Munchies]

I am pulling a bunch of stuff, and saving it to a folder, but the ECM

[Munchies]

I am pulling up a bunch of stuff, but the ECM connector is labeled as X2 in all of my docs here.
I dont think I have had enough coffee.
Is this the donor?
http://www.salvage-cars-for-sale.info/salvage/for-sale-chevrolet-silverado-2012-MTY4Mjk5ODM

Anything look right here?
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxpCsEaUvNDoa0I1U2RQVDFWSmM&usp=sharing

foundx1 and added it. looking for the actual diagram now. Forgot how much alldata diagrams are a PITA. Downloading mitchell now lol

[dave w]

I am pulling up a bunch of stuff, but the ECM connector is labeled as X2 in all of my docs here.
I dont think I have had enough coffee.
Is this the donor?
http://www.salvage-cars-for-sale.info/salvage/for-sale-chevrolet-silverado-2012-MTY4Mjk5ODM

I don't know if that was the donor vehicle. Could have been.


Anything look right here?
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxpCsEaUvNDoa0I1U2RQVDFWSmM&usp=sharing

foundx1 and added it. looking for the actual diagram now

It all looks good. I found the same schematics also. I was not able to find a schematic showing where X1-09 (Circuit 6311) is connected to?

dave w

[Munchies]

It doesnt show up anywhere I can find except the x1 pinout. Downloading mitchell now

[Munchies]

Spoke too soon. I found it under cruise control finally.

See new file x1099 in link

[pmkls1]

Wiring diagrams are split up into their corresponding category so sometimes they can be difficult to locate. I.E. The wiring diagram for a brake switch input at the ECM from the ABS system may be found in the ABS category instead of the Powertrain Management category. Or, in this case, the brake input or output for the Cruise Control will be found under that category instead of Powertrain Management.

Also, to address a much earlier but critical question, the data communications in these late model systems uses a twisted pair wiring configuration that requires a 120 ohm terminating resistor at either end. As you can see in one of your diagrams posted earlier the ECM in this vehicle contains one of the terminating resistors, but in order to communicate with the modules the other end of the twisted pair must have a terminating resistor as well. I don't know about operating the ECM without a BCM, but I was under the impression that it was not possible because the BCM serves as a gateway module for all module communications and more importantly it is a power-moding module that manages the power mode for all modules on both the high-speed and low-speed LAN networks. This means that the ECM and TCM do not wake-up with a switched +12v power source, rather the BCM sends a wake-up command over the high-speed LAN network. I do not know how these modules behave without the BCM connected to the data lines. Yes you may be able to communicate with them, but will they wake-up and sleep properly ? If the modules don't switch to sleep mode, their rate of power consumption when awake would most likely drain a battery overnight.

[dave w]

Spoke too soon. I found it under cruise control finally.

See new file x1099 in link

Awesome find!:thumbsup:

Thank you very much!:jfj:

dave w

[dave w]

Wiring diagrams are split up into their corresponding category so sometimes they can be difficult to locate. I.E. The wiring diagram for a brake switch input at the ECM from the ABS system may be found in the ABS category instead of the Powertrain Management category. Or, in this case, the brake input or output for the Cruise Control will be found under that category instead of Powertrain Management.

Also, to address a much earlier but critical question, the data communications in these late model systems uses a twisted pair wiring configuration that requires a 120 ohm terminating resistor at either end. As you can see in one of your diagrams posted earlier the ECM in this vehicle contains one of the terminating resistors, but in order to communicate with the modules the other end of the twisted pair must have a terminating resistor as well. I don't know about operating the ECM without a BCM, but I was under the impression that it was not possible because the BCM serves as a gateway module for all module communications and more importantly it is a power-moding module that manages the power mode for all modules on both the high-speed and low-speed LAN networks. This means that the ECM and TCM do not wake-up with a switched +12v power source, rather the BCM sends a wake-up command over the high-speed LAN network. I do not know how these modules behave without the BCM connected to the data lines. Yes you may be able to communicate with them, but will they wake-up and sleep properly ? If the modules don't switch to sleep mode, their rate of power consumption when awake would most likely drain a battery overnight.

I don't have the schematic in front of me. I remember there is a pin labeled 12V IGN wake up signal from the ECM directly to the TCM. EFI Live allows the options to ignore (no error reporting) "Lost communications with BCM". I will learn very soon how this works / does not work.

dave w

[pmkls1]

After looking at the schematics you posted it appears that the BCM may simply provide a switched +12v signal to all modules on the network to power them on. If you notice in the schematics, the ECM actually provides the ground for the powertrain relay. Most of these ignition wake-up signals are simply discreet signals and do not carry a load, so that part at least isn't difficult to wire. All of the load-bearing circuits go directly from the fuse blocks and junction blocks to the individual modules with the ignition switch simply sending a +12v discreet signal to the BCM when switched on. So, it appears that the BCM is not necessary, but the second 120 ohm resistor definitely is. Where the resistors are located and their physical properties vary from vehicle to vehicle. Many vehicles have at least one of them built into one of the modules, but the second one is quite often located somewhere in the wiring or fuse block.

[Buzz]

... it appears that the BCM is not necessary ...

True.


... but the second 120 ohm resistor definitely is ...

False.

[pmkls1]

False.

That's not what I have found in my experience or what I was told by the GM engineers at the training facility.

[Buzz]

That's not what I have found in my experience or what I was told by the GM engineers at the training facility.

How many standalone Gen IV wiring harnesses have you built ?

[dave w]

This is my first experience with a Gen IV anything!:yikes:

I decided to post my experience, to help others who might want to know what is involved. I greatly appreciate all the awesome support I've received!:thumbsup:

I will soon learn what is required to get this Gen IV project up and running. There could be conflicting information in this tread, which causes me concern. I will post back what I did to resolve the conflicting information.

The attached pics show Accessory Wakeup circuit 5985. I am in hopes once everything is hooked up, I'll be able to read the E38 computer thru the ALDL connector. It's my thinking if I am successful with reading the E38 without the BCM, the engine / trans will work. If more work is required, I'll post back with questions / solutions.

I have a good track record of success doing new and challenging things, I will accept nothing less than success with this project.

I could have wimped out / gone the easy route and purchased a harness / computer from Current Performance http://www.currentperformance.com/LS2.html I don't think the people at Current Performance are any smarter than me, they just know things I don't know YET!:laugh:

dave w

[Buzz]

Dave, I have no doubt that you will come up with what works for you, and that it will work well for your customer.

This is a commercial venture for you, and I am aware that you are the type of person who likes to know everything about how things function - very admirable.

I run a commercial operation and therefore don't give out "how to" instructions for the products that I sell. Kind of like asking Howell or SpearTech how to build a wiring harness.

That said, I really like the environment yourself, EagleMark, and others have going on this Forum. To this end, I will never knowingly let you make an error on a commercial product. I have attempted to provide helpful hints in this thread, as well as more specific assistance off the Forum.

I know you will get it sorted out to your satisfaction.

[pmkls1]

How many standalone Gen IV wiring harnesses have you built ?

I could ask you how much training you received from General Motors pertaining to their High Speed GMLAN network and how many GM engineers you have consulted with, but this is supposed to be an informational thread not a pissing contest. Your earlier post stating that you need 120 ohms resistance to communicate indicates the answer to my question. The proper resistance between the high and low GMLAN wires is supposed to be 60 ohms because the wires are terminated at either end with 120 ohm resistors in parallel. You may be able to communicate with the ECM and TCM with 120 ohms resistance in the wiring using a programming interface such as efi live and you may be able to get a vehicle to run and drive with that configuration as well. But that doesn't mean that the system is configured properly and the modules will function as they are designed to. MY advice wasn't based on what he can "get by" with, it was based on how it SHOULD be configured.

[Buzz]

I am only here to help ... I don't like, nor seek conflict. Your posts are informative, and no doubt based on a lifetime with GM products. That said, GM does not provide its Techs with training in how to build Hot Rods, nor how to run the systems in a non-OEM configuration.

You are trying to help Dave, but are making an educated guess a lot of the time - no problem, just indicate when these are guesses or logical inferences.

To getting things back on track to assisting Dave ...

The diode discussion stopped short of where it should have gone. The diode part number discussion took things in a non-productive direction. The answer as you guessed, was that these are integrated in the under-hood electrical centre - so therefore, there is no part number for these. Where the discussion should have gone, was to why these are used, when these are used, and is there a pattern per use versus controller. Yes - there is.

On CAN Bus comms issue - the wiring harness in a Hot Rod does not need a second 120 ohm resistor, if only an ECM and TCM are on the bus. Lots of threads on the internet regarding this topic - with arguments on both sides - the smart people have tried it both ways, and realized it doesn't really matter - the comms function either way.

Hopefully that is enough of an olive branch to get things back on track ...

[pmkls1]

Hopefully that is enough of an olive branch to get things back on track ...

As a matter of fact yes it is. I don't take issue with being corrected. It is the manner in which it is done. That being said, I would like to get back on track as well.

I actually thought that I did address the "why" in the diode issue or at least why they were necessary with that particular configuration. I knew that I had nothing to contribute as far as a part # which is why I left that unanswered. I figured that the information that I gave regarding the two possibilities of where they were placed would lead Dave to the answer he needed. I did have a part # for the diode that I took pics of, but didn't post it on purpose because I knew that it was not the correct part.

[1project2many]

My apologies in advance to Dave. I know you want to keep this on track so if this reply results in significant off topic discussion it can be broken into a separate thread.

Buzz said:

You are trying to help Dave, but are making an educated guess a lot of the time - no problem, just indicate when these are guesses or logical inferences.

It may well be that there are no guesses being made, rather we're seeing the endeavor of an alert student to teach what was taught. Having spent a few years as a GM tech, I know full well that what GM teaches is not always correct for what GM produces.


That said, GM does not provide its Techs with training in how to build Hot Rods, nor how to run the systems in a non-OEM configuration.
I became a GM tech, and went to GM schools, to build hot rods with computers when few believed an EFI hot rod was even possible. Most of GM's training was an excellent basis for building safe, fun, and reliable weekend cruisers. But in terms of servicing electronics, the most successful techs are usually the most conservative with customer vehicles. Keep the OEM configuration OEM. But you imply that you have built enough harnesses to gain confidence in your approach. So I think the interesting question is why you don't include the 120 Ohm resistance. Not intended as an accusation, this question gets at the reasoning and motivation behind making the system work without what is described as proper termination. Why do you have confidence that it doesn't matter if the resistor is included or not? Was it truly trial and error? With my GM background and desire not to be interrupted by an angry customer stuck at a car show on Saturday night, I would tend to include it even if the system worked without unless I really understood the potential repercussions of omitting it.

BTW, you read like someone I know from an old mailing list. Did you attend any of the meets at Bruce's place?

PMKLS1 said:

I don't take issue with being corrected. It is the manner in which it is done.
To put it bluntly, some people aren't interested in giving out trophies for wrong answers. Wrong is wrong, and that's all they feel needs to be said. It's hard to weed out the person who's like this from the trolls and wannabees since the reply by itself feels like an affront to your skill, training, and pride. Kudos for your reply and for continuing the discussion despite the heat it created.

[Buzz]

... I think the interesting question is why you don't include the 120 Ohm resistance. Not intended as an accusation, this question gets at the reasoning and motivation behind making the system work without what is described as proper termination. Why do you have confidence that it doesn't matter if the resistor is included or not? Was it truly trial and error? With my GM background and desire not to be interrupted by an angry customer stuck at a car show on Saturday night, I would tend to include it even if the system worked without unless I really understood the potential repercussions of omitting it.

I thought things were back on track ... guess not. As I have stated repeatedly, I only come here to help - I have never asked a question, and it is doubtful that I ever will. My intentions therefore are altruistic.

To your point to "keep the OEM configuration OEM" - then why not also include a BCM, EBCM, FPCM, IPC, HVAC, and all other modules that were originally on the CAN Bus system ? The obvious answer is that these are not needed in a custom / stand alone application. Same goes for the second 120 ohm resistor. You can you use any or all of these if you wish, but they are not strictly required.

What modules get used or not used is up to Dave, it is his build, but stating that a particular item is mandatory (when it is not) does not provide Dave with the totality of information needed to make informed choices.



... Kudos for your reply and for continuing the discussion despite the heat it created ....

I respond to a single post with a "true" and "false" comment, nothing derogatory, no argument, and that constitutes "heat" ? I then take the time, and make the effort, to get things back on track when this has been perceived as offensive (was not intended as such), and you are commending the other gentlemen for putting up with me ?

No offense intended, but your response comes across as more than a little one sided.

The easy thing for me to do is that my bat and ball and go home - I don't receive any direct benefit from participating in this Forum - but I have developed a great respect for Dave and EagleMark - despite having never met either them.

[EagleMark]

You'll find the same from Shannen, 1project2many. Not sure how anything from him can be taken off track... you got involved with CE, or should say CE had to be involved in your conversation or well... how could he be wonderful? and it has set the motion in wrong direction ever since...

[pmkls1]

Wow guys, I didn't mean to spark off an argument here. I only took issue with being told I was wrong without an explanation as to why as I was confident in my knowledge of how these systems are designed to operate. As was suggested by Shannen, I was advising Dave to err on the side of caution. It was never my intention to send this discussion so far OT.

[1project2many]

I thought things were back on track ... guess not. As I have stated repeatedly, I only come here to help - I have never asked a question, and it is doubtful that I ever will.
I have only ever seen you post answers.


I respond to a single post with a "true" and "false" comment, nothing derogatory, no argument, and that constitutes "heat" ?
Hmmm.... No. That constitutes not giving out a trophy for a wrong answer. If you are an extremely rational person you might not understand the effect this can have on another but the "heat" was apparent in PMKLS1's reply. He did seem "hot under the collar." Automotive techs can be very loyal to a brand and may accept much that is taught without question. Telling a loyal follower the master is wrong, especially without justification, is liable to evoke some emotion. I believe the reply was good despite the underlying emotion and congratulated the author (Phil).


No offense intended, but your response comes across as more than a little one sided.
No offense taken. No matter how strong a reply, a reader's bias is often more powerful. And that was the best I could produce Saturday night. Once I type a reply I have to read it to see if the message it presents is the one I intend. I'd discarded three versions which were far worse along with a joke about changing my username to "Woody" that I just couldn't make sound right. That was after spending half of my day finishing a long project fixing a poorly executed rear axle swap and disc brake conversion then following it up with round one of a two round title bout with an 82 Mercedes front suspension. I was having trouble putting a good message together.


The easy thing for me to do is that my bat and ball and go home
It is the easy thing to do. So thanks for taking the time to reply. You're truly welcome to stay or go. The forum loses something when anyone who contributes decides to leave. But if you decide to stay, please recognize that intelligent challenges to what you say, especially if you disagree with what's taught elsewhere, should be expected from time to time. Answering the challenge should be considered part of helping. It brings to light misunderstandings, incorrect information, or alternative interpretations which are difficult to obtain in one sided discussions. Recent exploits of AJ aside, in general we encourage intelligent discussion and try to make sure information is accurate when presented. Some of the best discussions and most enlightening answers have come about as a result of two individuals presenting conflicting information as correct.


I have developed a great respect for Dave and EagleMark - despite having never met either them.
As have I, and plenty of others here, too. These guys are why I brought my bat back to the game.

[dave w]

Soon, very soon ... next couple days ... the awaited results will be known. See attached ... the harness has been setup and sent to the owner.

dave w

[dave w]

Attached is the .ctz I modified to get the engine / trans running in the 2009 Wrangler.

dave w

[Munchies]

Caleditor is a great resource to keep him around. I think he means well, and maybe I am just toughened from years of forum banter and BS (especially P4x4!), or the USAF but its hard for me to get butt hurt over words, or being called wrong.

[dave w]

Attached is the schematic I'm using for the radiator dual fan system. I'm bench testing without the E38 computer doing the PWM control.

The results.
Grounding the D-BL/WH (dark blue with white stripe) wire turns on the Right Cooling Fan Only.
Grounding both the D-GN (Dark Green) and D-BL/WH (dark blue with white stripe) turns on both Left and Right Cooling Fans.
Grounding the D-GN (Dark Green) only does NOT turn on either Cooling Fan.

This seems correct to me. Am I correct?

What I think is supposed to happen ~ the E38 computer will turn on the right fan on with PWM control for both low / high speeds? When the AC is requested, and / or the CTS reaches a setpoint the E38 computer will turn the left fan and the right fan at high speed?

The good news, using a fully charged car battery and car cooling fans, I did not blow a fuse or blow a diode.:jfj: I'm thinking I must have the wiring done correctly.

dave w

[pmkls1]

Dave,

I BELIEVE that you are correct about how the ECM controls the fans and that is why your wiring and test results support your theory. That was how I understood the system to work going by the schematic and my memory. I did have a concern about you being able to find diodes that were rated to support the current that the system carries, but your initial test results indicate that the diodes you are using are adequate. Congrats on your success so far and the pics of your wiring look good ! Those diodes in your pics look like the ones I recall seeing more prominently than the A/C system diodes I dug out of my toolbox. Notice that on top of the diodes you have they have the symbol for a diode on them and the pics I posted earlier had a 1.0 on the top of them. I have a drawer dedicated to relays and fuses that I stripped from fuse blocks that I replaced (which happens quite often) and was sure that I had one. But, I could only find the A/C diodes.

[1project2many]

I looked at the posted wiring diagram. The diodes appear to conduct current back through the motor as it winds down after the relays open and stop supplying power.

[dave w]

I looked at the posted wiring diagram. The diodes appear to conduct current back through the motor as it winds down after the relays open and stop supplying power.

I was thinking the diodes were for spark suppression when the relays open. I agree the cooling fan motors provide a path to bleed off excess current / spark.

dave w

[brian617]

I was thinking the diodes were for spark suppression when the relays open. I agree the cooling fan motors provide a path to bleed off excess current / spark.

dave w

Thats how interpret the diagram as well. The diodes are wired similar to an AC clutch. The windings in the fan motor would reverse a voltage surge back towards the relay causing bad things.

[dave w]

So I just learned the 2009 Wangler has ONE radiator fan. The new question is how to set up the E38 for ONE fan? Maybe having the green wire grounded all the time, without the fan motor wiring is an option? I don't think there is an option of ONE fan in the E38?

dave w

[dave w]

I'm going to look at the possibility of using a Corvette PWM controller (GM # 10377609) as an option for controlling ONE fan. I'm thinking I should be able to copy paste the E38 computer fan parameters from a Corvette into the current flash.

This fan setup change is a classic case of poor planning.:doh:

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

Is that simply a pwm relay, or are there electronics in it that talk to the pcm?

[dave w]

Is that simply a pwm relay, or are there electronics in it that talk to the pcm?

I like your thinking ... It could be a simple PWM relay. I don't know enough about the Corvette fan PWM controller or the E38 computer to reverse engineer a solution. I'm doing this conversion for a customer, so I need to use "Off the Shelf" parts. The term "Off the Shelf" could mean most any automotive OEM / Aftermarket part. If something should fail, a replacement part should be available from the normal "Automotive Parts" sources.

I found information that Tyco offers a 30 amp Mini 280 SSR, same size relay I have in the dual fan module.

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

I know we are always looking for off the shelf/junkyard parts to use on conversions. I was thinking if this was a simple pwm relay, it might be a affordable one that might be good for conversions. But after looking into it, it appears to only be used on the 05 and up vette, and 04-09 caddy XLR. It also appears to be quite spendy ($120 from rockauto, which us usally the cheapest)

[dave w]

I know we are always looking for off the shelf/junkyard parts to use on conversions. I was thinking if this was a simple pwm relay, it might be a affordable one that might be good for conversions. But after looking into it, it appears to only be used on the 05 and up vette, and 04-09 caddy XLR. It also appears to be quite spendy ($120 from rockauto, which us usally the cheapest)

The connector used for the PWM module is impossible to source! I failed with Google to find the connector part number. Bottom connector in the attached picture.

One option I'm considering is to solder terminated wires directly to the PWM module and fill the cavity with clear RTV or something similar. Not a good option for easy replacement in the event of a failure. There are aftermarket fan assemblies available for slightly less than $110 (without PWM module) with the connectors ready to plug into the PWM module. Used (complete) fan assemblies are not low cost, found one on ebay for about $150 ( + buyer pays actual shipping). Searching the local salvage yards came up empty.

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

Being a vette only part is going to make it pretty much a no go for finding one in a junkyard. Can the connector not be gotten through a GM dealer?
I'm guessing the connector is specific to that module only?

[dave w]

Being a vette only part is going to make it pretty much a no go for finding one in a junkyard. Can the connector not be gotten through a GM dealer?
I'm guessing the connector is specific to that module only?

The Cadillac XLR uses the same fan assembly / module as the Vette. I don't think the GM dealers can get just the connector, because the connector is included with the fan / shroud assembly part #15819952.

dave w

[pmkls1]

There is a possibility of getting just the connector body, but obtaining the part number would probably be easier through viewing the wiring schematics. If you view the portion of the schematics that portrays the pinout location it gives you a part number for the connector body and also your terminal part numbers. The terminal part numbers are not in the typical parts system, but the connector part number usually is if it is available. If there is much chance of getting the connector, it would be either that way or speaking to a parts guy and seeing if the parts catalog lists a number for that harness assembly. The actual parts catalog does list far more than you can find online so there is at least a chance. Your best bet would be to physically go to a dealer parts department and look at the parts fiche with the parts guy.

HTH,
Phil

[1project2many]

I think I've seen a version of that connector on Mercedes fans. Might also be used on Chryco products. Is that connector the correct one? Four pins?
Have you looked through these?
http://www.bosch-connectors.com/bogscoca/category/1

These might be right...
http://www.bosch-connectors.com/bogscoca/category/7

[dave w]

I think I've seen a version of that connector on Mercedes fans. Might also be used on Chryco products. Is that connector the correct one? Four pins?
Have you looked through these?
http://www.bosch-connectors.com/bogscoca/category/1

These might be right...
http://www.bosch-connectors.com/bogscoca/category/7

Thanks for helping me look for the PWM connector!

Attached is a better picture of the actual part, showing the side latching tabs.

dave w

[1project2many]

That still looks like a Benz connector.

Read this thread. About 5/8 down the first post is an image of a controller and connector:
http://mbworld.org/forums/cl-class-w215/457732-replacing-radiator-fan-radiator-fan-control-module-cl500-w215.html
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-9A0EtTu1sP0/UBRhP5H0fuI/AAAAAAAAADs/KY8KUJsHcxo/s653/rs15.gif


If that looks like the correct connector, this application list might give you potential donor cars:
http://www.carpartsdiscount.com/radiator-cooling-fan-controller-core-control-unit.html?3593=54975

I'll let you look at these for a bit. If it seems like the right track I'll see if I can locate some part numbers for a new connector.

[dave w]

That still looks like a Benz connector.

If that looks like the correct connector, this application list might give you potential donor cars:

I'll let you look at these for a bit. If it seems like the right track I'll see if I can locate some part numbers for a new connector.

That looks EXACTLY like what I am looking for! I really appreciate the help!:thumbsup:

dave w

[dave w]

Success!:jfj: The 2012 wiring harness and E38 computer are working in the 2009 Wrangler. I was but one of the team members in the project. The nuts and bolts of the project were completed by Dean and his staff at Off-Road Components in Sandy Oregon. http://jscustomwebs.netfirms.com/Offroad/index.html

I would like to extend a HUGE Thank You to the members of gearhead-efi.com that supported me during this project.:thumbsup: I had several questions, and the support here at gearhead-efi.com was AWESOME! I feel this project has been a success for all of us.

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

So did you end up finding a connector for the vette controller and wire it up or do something else?

[dave w]

So did you end up finding a connector for the vette controller and wire it up or do something else?

For the short term, I found a used Vette controller with the wiring.

The idea of having two fans, one for a transmission cooler and the other for the engine is gaining traction with the vehicle owner.

dave w