Need ideas for 4 cylinder DIS underhood ECM project?

[EagleMark]

The recent thread of NorthStar DIS made me retink my kids Toyota rock Crawler. More importantly this quote:


Yes, the 4 cyl application will be slightly different, in that the 4 cyl will only require 1 crank sensor and a much more simple wheel. The bin changes will be the same or similar however.

It's a 22re MPFI engine we built with higher compression, bigger cam, ported head. Tweaked the MAF and it runs real well! But and his freinds with 22r carb engines want to convert to a tunable ECM.

Since they are all into off roading a waterproof ECM/PCM would be a good starting point! Running the Toyota injectors on the MPFI one would be a bonus, one of the guys wants to do a TBI conversion which would be easy. But recent threads make me think I want to do something differant.

Two things I would like advice on? One is there a waterproof underhood ECM that would do both MPFI and TBI? If not which would you choose for MPFI and is there one for TBI?

Second is which DIS coil pack to use? I've had these coil packs and underhood ecm before on V6 cars and remember washing the engines at car wash and not even a hickup on restart so that is a GOOD thing for an off roader. But all this has to be for a four cylinder...

[dave w]

The 1990 Buick Regal Limited V6 - 3.8L vin L 231ci - MFI GAS OHV used the underhood '7727 with distributor less ignition.

The '7727 was also used in some TBI applications, $89?

dave w

[EagleMark]

That would get me down to one ECM for both ends of the project and I have one here! There's only about a bizillion of them in the junkyard.

I know the 7727 will run V8 and V6, I guess it's time to look at some mask and see if it'll run I4 or if thers a memcal for four cylinder for limphome chip? Pick a knock sensor, has to match memcal right?

Or is it a specific memcal for DIS?

This is good news! :jfj:

[EagleMark]

Found this on a 2.2L engine...

[attachment=0:3t3kq0w8]2.1L-4-cylinder-DIS.gif[/attachment:3t3kq0w8]

[EagleMark]

Since my machinist is very familar with maching distributors this may be an option... if not for this project something else. This is a very cool, very cheap part.

[attachment=1:2mydspee]2.5l-cam-signal-distributor.jpg[/attachment:2mydspee]

[attachment=0:2mydspee]2.5l-cam-signal-distributor.jpg[/attachment:2mydspee]

[1project2many]

A waterproof underhood ecm which can to tbi or pfi with DIS or distributor looks like this:
http://www.bakesonline.com/images/mefi2_lg.jpg
MEFI is up to version 5 AFAIK. I have software which will talk with versions 1-3 at least. These are extremely expensive today but if you look around you can find some good deals. Like this one:
http://jacksonville.craigslist.org/boa/2640629347.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
I used a MEFI with the boat intake on my Chevelle.
http://home.metrocast.net/~shannen/pics/Chvlngn3.jpg
The MEFI is zip tied to the fuel rail above the rear of the driver's side valve cover.

The car ecm's are only water resistant.

I put DIS on my Toyota engine. I built an aluminum hub to bolt to the front of the crankshaft inside the pulleys. The wheel is attached to the hub. You can still access the large damper bolt to remove the damper and pulleys as an assembly. I have the prototype spacer here and might be able to dig up some of the dimensions and notes from building the wheel. My truck retained AC so it took a little extra work to get everything together. Without A/C it will be easier.
http://home.metrocast.net/~shannen/yota/22RTE/GM_ECM/Trigger_Wheel.jpg
http://home.metrocast.net/~shannen/yota/22RTE/GM_ECM/2pt2crank_sensor.jpg

I used a crank sensor and ignition module from a 2.0 / 2.2 Cavalier. Any Cavalier module from 87 to 93 is a good choice but 94+ won't work as the crank signal is sent directly to the ecm / pcm. Avoid the Quad 4 stuff and don't mix and match DIS parts from different engine families.

[EagleMark]

Very cool conversion! But I don't want to start with rare or expensive ecm... loads of boats up here but hardly anything a boat junk yard newer than 1980 tops. Boats just last forever up here with fresh water and short boating season...

If you have measurments of that wheel I would surely use it. Thanks!

I understand underhoods are weather proof and not waterproof. But they will handle anything thrown at them off road and open up possibilitys for mounting locations.

[1project2many]

I understand underhoods are weather proof and not waterproof. But they will handle anything thrown at them off road and open up possibilitys for mounting locations.

Oh. I thought you wanted waterproof because your son wheeled like some of the local boys here. Sounds like he at least tries to keep it from getting submerged!

I'm not completely kidding. I bought a rear diff from a kid that was propane injecting his 20R. He wanted a fuel method that would work upside down and / or underwater, "Like those Russian Diesels!" I wished him luck and left with my parts!

It might take a bit to get the numbers for ya but I'll do what I can.

If you ever do stumble on a Delco / Delphi MEFI ecm at a good price, grab it. Software is a bit different to work with but it's much closer to a "universal" ecm than the automotive stuff.

[EagleMark]

My son does do extreme wheeling, only rolled once, now has a new cab and full exo cage, knows how to do watercrossings and limits! But summertime runs without doors so even an ECM inside may get wet in rain. He likes to watch drunk idiots wreck their trucks but likes his. Everything is vented up high, lowest point for a vent is motor, top of firewall and looped hose. We have done watercrossings to hood and window line... scary when water is moving and washing you sidways... this one local trail crosses same river several times but only 100 foot across, runs fast and high in spring!

He's been driving my off roader since 13 (now 18) with our club North Idaho Trail Blazers which is more middle age family guys that have wheeled for life. So he has had good teachers and lots of experiance and dosen't drink... He also hates mud bogging... but likes to watch drunks ruining their trucks every year at Moyie Mud Bogs.

Back to regular topic...

Doubt the underhood ECM would ever be under water, unless he made a mistake... but sure to get splased.

So the 7727 looks to be the choice so far. Want to do this at reasonble cost and duplicatable because of all the Toyotas locally that wheel.

[1project2many]

Want to do this at reasonble cost and duplicatable because of all the Toyotas locally that wheel.

Then you and I need to spend quality time together discussing Toyota wiring. They do some strange things and it really took me a little time and creativity to work out the solutions. Since it's really common for the 22RE guys to ask about swapping in an RTE turbo engine, I posted this to the 22RTE trucks forum: http://www.22rte-trucks.com/coppermine/ ... utList.pdf (http://www.22rte-trucks.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10363/MasterPinoutList.pdf)" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I spent many, many hours with my 91 truck wiring diagram and the Sunbird diagram working out a GM to Yota solution. I even made a jumper harness at one point but decided there were too many gotchas and just wired the GM ecm directly. Unfortunately all the handwritten notes got wet in the barn so I'll have to do it again from scratch. But it will be much easier and quicker this time.

More DIS stuff:
http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss333/misc_photos_01/DISinj_timing1a.gif
http://i589.photobucket.com/albums/ss333/misc_photos_01/DISinj_timing1.gif

[EagleMark]

So for the injected Toy (my kids) you ended up using the factory harness? Don't get a headache this is awhile off for me.

His buddy want to do his but it's a carb so I will be getting a JY harness for it along with the ECM. For now the idea is TBI? Maybe easier to get a MPFI intake? So figuring out ECM, harness, DIS coils, sensors and maching a reluctor ring etc... are where I am at for now.

Right now this is just theory time for me... seeing if it's doable and get ducks in a row. If I am going to do a system for these I'd like to do something differant (DIS) but needs to stay in the realm of cheap easily accessable JY parts for the most part. That reluctor ring, spacer and bracket for crank, even a plug for distributor is not hard or expensive at my machinist.

Would the 7727 need more than one crank signal? If a cam signal is needed I think I would build that into distributor...

[Six_Shooter]

Cam signal is only needed for SFI.

[EagleMark]

Looked at the $A1 for 1227727, is it MAF or Speed?Density? Has no mention of MAF, does have some Airflow stuff thow has comments to change from 4, 6, 8 cylinder and TBI (not sure if it's 2 or one barrel) or MPFI and Launch Mode! Someone has done a bunch of work on it. Since it's used in a W body I will guess Robert Saar! :thumbsup:

Have looked at $8D... not sure...

Notes on project. Look for 1989-90-91-92 W body four cylinder, has DIS and 1227727 ECM, runs only crank sensor. May be perfect donor car
[attachment=2:3o2a92gk]2.5-dis.gif[/attachment:3o2a92gk]

[attachment=1:3o2a92gk]2.5-coil.gif[/attachment:3o2a92gk]

[attachment=0:3o2a92gk]2.5l-underhood.gif[/attachment:3o2a92gk]

[1project2many]

Yes, used factory harness. Lotsa details to make it work, but result is factory looking wiring under hood.

I may have a cal for the 2.5 lumina at home. 2.5 DIS uses different physical hardware but ecm doesn't care. Throttle body is small bore, model 700. Main thing is to get settings for single cylinder TBI.

EFI manifolds available for 22R series engines. Watch engine year. Block and head changed. Tall block + short head or short block + tall head. Ports from old head not same as new, old and new block/head swaps not a good idea. I believe 83 was old engine and available with EFI. Later manifold, 89+ vintage IIRC, is better design if you have later head. Again, plenty of details to consider.

Yota ignition module not compatible with GM ECM although distributor trigger likely will work with GM HEI module. Conversion to DIS can be done after conversion to EFI.

I have disassembly from $A1 and several different def files. Early 2.8 Celebrity, 88 or 89 vintage, MAF equiped from GM. Lotsa problems with MAF sensors, GM finally admitted "100% failure rate expected." Car alread had MAP sensor so GM issued MAP only calibrations. MAF retained as IAT sensor was in MAF. I have MAF cal from early car available but I don't know if I have a disassembly to go with it. By time frame it might be '165 or '7730 ecm. Reason for suggesting is you might be able to use a MAF from Vette / Camaro if that's the route you want to go. I'd use MAP but to each his own. If any Cavaliers were MAF equipped the sensors were long gone before $A1 was released.

IIRC some $A1 stuff was done by a guy named Jay Vessels and maybe someone before him played with the normally disabled E trans code. This is in the archives at gmecm.

I had dreams of selling the DIS stuff to Yota guys running MS but most of the Yota crowd seems to be using the Ford toothed wheels and ignition system. There wasn't much interest that I saw in the GM system. If you could get a few of them installed you could probably drum up some interest.

[dave w]

I recently finished some non-GM '0411 PCM work. I think the '7727 ECM is versatile enough to do TBI and DIS with a few custom parts similar to the '0411 parts pictured. I did the CAD for the parts pictured, a CNC machine did the rest.

dave w

[Six_Shooter]

The 22R dizzy trigger is compatible with a GM ICM. Lucky is running his 22R in his Land Rover this way.

[1project2many]

I was going to run my 7749 on the Yota dizzy trigger. GM modules are pretty tolerant of different input signals. I knew a guy that used to trigger a GM module with one wire from a Ford Y block dizzy. I triggered one using the coil trigger wire of a Datsun pickup. In the early days one of the tests was to put a soldering gun within 2" of the module and pull the trigger. With 12V and gnd applied, the module would start triggering the coil at 60Hz.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Wow dave, you do some really nice work! There is a lack of good machine shops around here that will do small one off projects like this stuff.
Is the crank trigger wheel for the northstar dis system something you can do too?

[dave w]

Wow dave, you do some really nice work! There is a lack of good machine shops around here that will do small one off projects like this stuff.
Is the crank trigger wheel for the northstar dis system something you can do too?

Yes, I able to CAD just about any type of EFI trigger (Cam / Crank / Sensor). I do the CAD on my work computer, off the clock of course. :rolleye: My employer has several different approved machine shops for the prototype development work I'm involved with. I will be up front, the CNC machine time is expensive! :mad1: I'm only a hobby machinist on manual lathe / mills. I hand off my CAD designs to the Pro's!

dave w

[1project2many]

When I built my DIS parts I did everything myself until it came to adding notches to the wheel. I just couldn't get the consistency I wanted when measuring for placement. I brought it to a guy with a pretty expensive machine that was able to do a lot of time consuming work in a hurry. All I had to do was tell him how many degrees bet. the notches, how many deg. across the notches, and where I wanted the notches to start, and he did the rest.

Dave, are you just showing the cam sensor, or did you use a cam sensor in a DIS + TBI application?

[dave w]

Dave, are you just showing the cam sensor, or did you use a cam sensor in a DIS + TBI application?

I am showing a custom designed cam sensor and crank sensor for a Non-GM use of a 12200411 PCM. The '0411 PCM is a flash MPFI computer from the LSx family of engines. The though I am sharing is, with some planned design work, it would be possible to adapt the cam / crank / sensor triggers form one type of GM engine family to another GM engine family or even to a completely different engine manufacture. The DIS system could be adapted to almost any engine application with a custom designed cam / crank / sensor trigger system and an ECM with a definition file able to support DIS.

dave w

[1project2many]

I am showing a custom designed cam sensor and crank sensor for a Non-GM use of a 12200411 PCM.
For non GM use of a few different OBDII pcm's, actually. Thanks.

Most of the P4 ecm's will do single or twin injector tbi or pfi with no troubles. And GM engineers did us a wonderful favor by making the DIS systems compatible with hardware and code originally intended for distributors. Much of what we are using from early 90s ecm's was developed in the late '70s and early '80s. The only real trick to a DIS swap is putting a crank wheel and sensor on the engine that's compatible in signal type and timing with the DIS module. The required timing can be determined from code if a calibration can be obtained, or from the hardware by actual measurement. Once you do a DIS swap you'll realize how easy they are.

I mentioned years ago on GMECM that (2) four cylinder DIS modules could be used on the same 7 notch trigger wheel if the crank sensors were 90 degrees apart. The technical problem there is ensuring the EST pulse is sent to the correct module at the correct time. At first I thought a CMP sensor and some timing circuitry was needed but today I realize a simple flip-flop triggered by the REF pulses should work just fine. If REF is triggered by module A, send EST to module A. When REF is triggered by module B, flip EST to module B. The REF pulses are 90 degrees apart so as long as ignition timing is never greater than 90 degrees, things should be ok. And if you're looking for a cool way to do V8 ignition, twin 4 cylinder DIS adaptations are pretty rare indeed.

[EagleMark]

Twin four cylinder DIS would look cool as well. One on each valve cover. Got to be cheaper in the end. But one LS coil per cylinder is easier. Lots of them available as LS engine owners have $$ for shiney red MSD coils...

[Kms]

Not to drag up an old thread, But did you get this working? What pcm would work best?