Northstar DIS

[JeepsAndGuns]

So I was reading through some of the links in the FAQ/conversion links thread at the top, and read about that caddy northstar DIS and module. Seems verry interesting and cool.
So, I was wondering, can this work the the 16197427 pcm? I had been having thoughts about DIS as the next step/project after I get done with my MPFI intake swap. The local pull a part junkyard is chock full of caddys with those northstars, so the parts could be had cheap. All I would have to do is have a crank trigger wheel made and then make a mounting bracket for the pickups.
So, is it possiable with the 7427 pcm, or just a pipe dream?

[Six_Shooter]

Yes, it can be made to work. Some of the offsets and scalers will need to be changed to give the additional "timing" required to the EST line. IIRC the N* DIS requires an additional 70* over what a dizzy bin would need.

1project2many will have another way to do it that involves negative values.

Both ways work, although I haven't been able to get the negative values way to work myself.

[EagleMark]

What does the Northstar coils look like? They single coil on cylinder like LS? I had planned that on a six banger I sold and sold the project parts. Was going to use LS coils as they are cheap, the rich guys buy MSD coils and I have seen the take offs for $20 a piece.

[Six_Shooter]

One version of the N* coil pack, looks just the 60 degree V6 coil pack, with an extra coil. The other version is separated onto each cylinder head, and AFAIK is triggered directly from the PCM. It is the former N* coil pack that is desired. I also have a project in mind for the N* coil pack, and I have the coil pack already. Just need the sensors and wheel. ;)

This is the one to use:
http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj37/a70duster/Camaro/IMGP1988.jpg

More pictures here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 94&t=37780 (http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=37780)

[EagleMark]

So I could buy a cheap little V6 car and convert to MS? My buddys got a Quad Four with four coils under the top engine cover, timing chain slipped, he'd probably sell/give me cheap... does MegaSquirt do Nitrous?

That's 3 things I want to do, not necessarily together, DIS, Nitrous and Megasquirt...

[JeepsAndGuns]

Not converting to megasquirt myself. So I would like to keep this as close on the topic of the 7427 as I can. This, if goes well, could possiably be a good refrence for future swappers!

The coil pack pictured above is the one that the junkyard is chock full of.
It appears, after reading that post in the FAQ,
http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=380
that the 1x cam sensor input you simply leave un hooked, as it appears the DIS module only passes that signal through to the pcm for injector firing (if I am reading it correctly).
I'm guessing that you would be completely removing the current ignition module? And the 4 wires from the pcm that went to that module simply need to be hooked up to the correct pins on the caddy module/coil pack?
Also more specifics about what bin mods need to be done would be great too!

[Six_Shooter]

Yes, the dizzy ICm gets removed/disconnected and those wires do get connected to the new DIS ICM. They are the same signals between the dizzy and DIS systems, as I said, the major difference is the EST signal has an additional amount of "timing" on it to align the spark with the correct piston at the proper time before TDC.

Mark, yes MS will run virtually anything. The Quad 4 ignition is not one I would chose for any conversion, however, because it's molded to fit the Q4 only.
If you wanted to convert a 4 cyl to DIS using a GM ECM, I would use the 1987 to 1995 2.0L/2.2L OHV ignition system (maybe up to '98, I don't recall when there was a major change). It uses a simple 6+1 wheel.

Like this one:
http://easyautodiagnostics.com/gm_2200_coilpack/images/image_1.jpg

For a 6 cylinder, the 60 degree V6 DIS used from 1987 to 2005 or so, works well, and uses the same simple 6+1 wheel that the 4 Cyl I suggested above does.

3400 coil pack, 2.8, 3.1 and 3100 all similar;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/angrysk8r/coilpackout.jpg

The two above DIS systems, look very similar to the above pictured N* DIS, the difference being 2 and 3 coils, instead of 4.

The N* also has another large change from the 4 and 6 cyl DIS in that it uses a very complicated trigger wheel that uses notches spaced unevenly, and uses two crank position sensors, that between the two and some match with in the ICM, it determines where in crank rotation the engine is, to fire which coil.

There is another 8 Cylinder DIS system, though it is more rare, that being from the LT5. This DIS system uses a much more simple trigger wheel, looks kinda like the above DIS systems, but is quite rare and very expensive, even used if you can find them.

LT5 coil pack
http://pnwzr1.net/Registry%20project%202/20.JPG

There is another commonly available 6 cylinder coil pack, that uses the same coils, but a different ICM, and a different offset, or amount of required additional "timing" in the EST signal. This would be the 3800 coil pack. There are more connections, though I don't think all are needed, just for basic ignition control, and the plug is at one end of the ICM, not separated into 3 different plugs like the the 60 degree V6 coil pack. I don't know what the trigger wheel looks like for this one, I haven't researched it enough to find out. I do plan on testing one at some point, just to see if there is any appreciable difference between this and the 60 degree V6 coil pack.

Note the difference in connectors:
http://www.underhoodservice.com/Content/Site308/Articles/04_01_2008/4024713800coilp_00000021319.jpg

I only posted the link to the MSextra thread for those interested in more pictures and more info, not to steer anyone towards MS.

[EagleMark]

I only posted the link to the MSextra thread for those interested in more pictures and more info, not to steer anyone towards MS.Sure ya did... :innocent2:

Personally I think MS is way cool and want to do one one day. But right now my four vehicles are set.

Excellent DIS history lesson there Six Shooter! So bottom line to install DIS is need to add Crank Signal Sensor? Looks like there are plug in option DIS coil packs for TBI harness. Then set up bin correctly?

[Six_Shooter]

Yeah, that's the long and short of it.

Don't take the years or applications I posted as gospel, it was just a quick run down of what I could recall off hand. There are many other vehicles to get the 4 and 6 cyl coil packs from.

If you look in my build thread for the Datsun, you'll see the trigger wheel and coil pack install, though I'm not sure I have updated pictures of the coil pack location in there.

[JeepsAndGuns]

So how exactly does the DIS module fire the coils? From the pictures there is only two wires going to the actual coil. So does one get power, and then the other get grounded when it needs to fire, basicly like the injectors? Or is there more to it than that? I am trying to learn here.


They are the same signals between the dizzy and DIS systems.

Are you saying that you still have to run the distributor with the caddy coil pack? I thought the whole idea of this, was to get rid of the distributor. Or am I reading this wrong? A bit confused.
Or do you mean the signals going into the pcm from the northstar DIS module, are the same as the signals that the original tbi ignition module sends to the pcm?

[Six_Shooter]

The DIS coils work exactly like a single coil system. 12V ignition is applied to the positive terminal and a trigger is applied and removed from the negative side to fire the coil.

No, the dizzy can be removed (though you still need to find a way to drive the oil pump).

The signals between the DIS to the ECM are the same as a dizzy ICM to the ECM, just with some timing changes overall. The colours, description and use are the same.

[Six_Shooter]

Here is a thread with N* info. http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-p ... dizzy.html (http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/193531-do-away-dizzy.html)

It's funny to look back and see what I didn't know and what I know now. I've posted in that thread under both user names i've had on TGO.

[EagleMark]

Dual personalities ay?

Here's a good PDF on ignition systems. From the looks of one of the pictures Six Shooter posted there is the 2 plugs, some same as TBI distributor but on the other side is another plug. I'm sure there has to be a power supply for coils.

Here's a very informative PDF for DIS and so much more...

[EagleMark]

That NorthStar module needs 2 crank signals and a cam signal. so there has to be an easier way to make the coils work with just a crank signal.

[EagleMark]

I read in the thirdgen thread that some marine LT1 engines came with a NorthStar ignition. This reminded me of the 24x system.
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/24x.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And their 58 system that uses the crank signal and a cam signal from the distributor.
http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/58x.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now if Dave w shows up he will show us his crank toothed wheel he uses, one I think he was doing for an IH motor. While we were talking about this I had suggested building a reluctor wheel for inside a distributor, this would give crank and cam signals needed. You could cap off the distributor just like they did on the 58 system above.

[1project2many]

So how exactly does the DIS module fire the coils? From the pictures there is only two wires going to the actual coil. So does one get power, and then the other get grounded when it needs to fire, basicly like the injectors? Or is there more to it than that? I am trying to learn here.

The coil is fired like most automotive coils. Power is applied to one wire of the coil's primary circuit. Before spark is needed, the other wire is connected to ground. This "charges" the coil and causes it to build a magnetic field. When spark is needed the ground connection is removed. The magnetic field collapses and as it does, a voltage is created in the secondary winding. When voltage is high enough, a spark is created.

All you need to focus on is that it's really just an electronic distributor. The DIS internal circuitry decides which coil to fire. You provide a good power and ground circuit, connect the 4 wires required by the ecm, and set up the calibration so it commands a spark at the right time and you're all set to go.

Northstar system has 2 crank signals plus a cam signal. From way back, if any single sensor is disabled the ignition portion works fine but the pcm does not receive the timing required for sequential injection.

This page is linked to in the thirdgen page: http://lukeskaff.com/?page_id=380" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It's very good about showing which terminals need to be used or ignored, and it has dimensional info for the trigger wheel. Also, thee's good tech info from junkcltr starting here: http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/posts ... st156.html (http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/posts/diy-prom/193531-do-away-dizzy/4253668-post156.html)

I've added relative info from the FSM just to put it into the archives here.

I would put the crank sensor wheel on the crank. It will work on the distributor but with the timing chain and cam moving around you're not getting any better accuracy than the distributor gives and you're doing a whole bunch more work to get it.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Ask and you shall recieve!
Gonna take me a day or two to read through all those links and other info. Then I'm sure I will have lots more questions!

[EagleMark]

I got a headache trying to figure it all out as far as changes needed in ECM... :yikes:

The mechanical end seems pretty straight forward.

[Six_Shooter]

Here is a thread on code59.org about changing certain settings to gain the extra "timing" needed. While this is $59 specific, many of the same ideas and even tables that are adjusted could be used in other applications: http://www.code59.org/index.php?option= ... mitstart=0 (http://www.code59.org/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=38&func=view&id=5960&catid=12&limit=10&limitstart=0)

[JeepsAndGuns]

That NorthStar module needs 2 crank signals and a cam signal. so there has to be an easier way to make the coils work with just a crank signal.

Am I just looking at that picture wrong, or does the cam sensor simply pass through to the pcm, with no real connection in the dis module other than power and ground?

[EagleMark]

:confused:

I still have a headache...
< feels like something stuck me in the head... :laugh:

[1project2many]

Am I just looking at that picture wrong, or does the cam sensor simply pass through to the pcm, with no real connection in the dis module other than power and ground?

The signal is processed and converted from the raw waveform to a digital signal.


I still have a headache...
Well, the mechanical bits can be set up with the desired timing you choose, if that helps.

[Six_Shooter]

It has been said that the cam position is just a pass through, but that also the N* ICM can lose any 1 of the 3 sensors and still continue to work, so it may be shared, but isn't absolutely necessary to have the N* ICM function.

[EagleMark]

Well, the mechanical bits can be set up with the desired timing you choose, if that helps.I read the code59 link from Six Shooter and the headache subsided, a bit...

But what your saying is making the reluctor ring 70 degrees off? Or whatever number it was.

I'm really looking at this for a four cylinder so all this Northstar V8 info may be a bit off for my next project...

[Six_Shooter]

Well, the mechanical bits can be set up with the desired timing you choose, if that helps.I read the code59 link from Six Shooter and the headache subsided, a bit...

But what your saying is making the reluctor ring 70 degrees off? Or whatever number it was.

I'm really looking at this for a four cylinder so all this Northstar V8 info may be a bit off for my next project...

The problem with setting the mechanical wheel off by 70*, is that starting will be hard, if not impossible. In the original installation/application, the DIS runs at 10* BTDC, until the timing signal is active (usually around 400 RPM), where the ECM takes over. It is under control of the ECM that the signals differ between a dizzy and DIS application.

There is some theory and in some MegaSquirt applications that enable ECM based timing control right from 0 RPM, by applying 5V to the bypass wire at key on, not once the 400 RPM threshold has been achieved.
Personally I'd rather set it up to have the ignition system work as it was designed to with the correct trigger wheel alignment, so that if a Limp Home Mode situation occurs, you can still drive it home on the base timing.

Yes, the 4 cyl application will be slightly different, in that the 4 cyl will only require 1 crank sensor and a much more simple wheel. The bin changes will be the same or similar however.

[1project2many]

The threshold can be adjusted so the ecm applies 5V practically all the time. The worry is that low cranking voltage will cause the ecm supplied voltage to be insufficient to switch to EST mode and the module would then be 60-70 degrees advanced. Supply 5V from an external circuit and disable EST code 42 or place proper resistance on bypass wire from ecm so monitored voltage looks correct.

FSM shows Northstar DIS will run without any 1 sensor. Without cam sensor the SFI turns to PFI as there's no timing to sequence the injectors.

The reluctor ring can be set up at a number you determine. If bypass is used as GM intended, any wheel timing which provides from 0 to 15 deg advance at cranking will work. Problem with using someone else's wheel is you have to determine the timing they've selected. Although that's not too hard to work out, either.

I have 4 cylinder appropriate info will post in 4 cyl thread.

[JeepsAndGuns]

FSM shows Northstar DIS will run without any 1 sensor. Without cam sensor the SFI turns to PFI as there's no timing to sequence the injectors.

So If the cam sensor fails, it just switches to batch fire? Thats a pretty cool failsafe.
Ya know, another thing I just thought of. The northstar crank trigger wheel doesnt look overly hard to machine, the system is crank triggered, DIS ignition, OBD-1, and sequencial injection. So why has no one hacked the northstar PCM? All I see on tunerpro is a datastream defination. Why is the northstar system a red headed stepchild? Its seems like it could be a possiably cheap way to get sequencial injection, and its already set up for this DIS system we are all wanting to swap to :tounge:
I'm guessing there is a good reason no one has hacked it, anyone know why?

[EagleMark]

Probably because not many Caddy owners tune their cars... Just looked and TunerCat has a bunch of Caddy files, not sure what to look for in NorthStar for this DIS...

What's even stranger is they have a Caddy with Manual trans?

[1project2many]

I have some Northstar definition files. Northstar pcm's were tougher to hack because they're dual processor pcm's with 2 eproms full of calibration data and code. There are a few disassemblies around but I don't believe they were put in the public domain.

If a cam sensor fails while the engine is running the pcm can continue to use sequential injection. It already has the sequence and crank position. But at next startup it will fire in batch mode. Most of GM's gasoline vehicles with SEFI will revert to batch fire if the cam signal is missing.

[JeepsAndGuns]

I have some Northstar definition files. Northstar pcm's were tougher to hack because they're dual processor pcm's with 2 eproms full of calibration data and code. There are a few disassemblies around but I don't believe they were put in the public domain.



So is there just a lot of extra programing in the northstar pcm's thats not needed and is hard, or not able to be turned off? Are they flash memory pcm's or do they have removeable eproms? I have never looked at a northstar pcm.
Dont guess there are any tunerpro rt V5 definations? Would be fun just to look at one.


But back to the topic at hand. I have another question, it was touched on in that one thread on thirdgen. Did anyone ever work out a way to use the LS1/2 coils with the northstar dis in wasted spark mode? Now that would be uber cool.
I believe if I could do that, on top of my batch fire mpi, it would cure my desire to swap to a 411 pcm sequencial system. And I need something to get rid of that super expensive desire. My pocket book would thank me. :laugh:

[1project2many]

Does FAST still make the E-Dist? It wasn't super expensive last time I checked, although it's probably been years ago that I even looked.
Edit: Found this today http://www.azspeed-marine.com/faedeldi.html Doesn't seem like *that* much money.

I know little more than basics about the LS2 coils. Never ever heard of "DIS mode" before. I figured it was a made-up phrase used by a guy that didn't understand the system. AFAIK the LS2 coils require a positive input on the trigger line and the DIS systems trigger the negative side of the coil. Using that info you'd need to invert the control signal.

DIS coils from the 2.2, 2.5, and 60 deg engines can throw a spark over 1 and 1/4 inches long. The coils from the 90 deg V6 engine create enough voltage that they'll burn through their own insulation if spark's not given a path to ground. In the ecm, the spark control system can't vary the timing to individual cylinders. All cylinders get the same amount of advance. So LS2 coils would add little performance for the cost, complexity, and effort.

[JeepsAndGuns]

What I meant by wasted spark mode, was instead of firing the LS coils one at a time sequencially, fire two at a time. Basicly since the nortstar DIS module is designed for 4 coils, and not 8, simply hook up and trigger two of the LS coils at one time. That way the northstar dis module sill works like its ment to, its just firing two seperate coils, instead of one with two outputs. But I was not aware of how diffrently the coils work.

So let me see if I got this right:
The northstar coils fire by applying power and ground to them to charge them, then the ground is removed and causes the coils to discharge through the plug wires and fire the plugs.
The LS coils have power and ground applied to them, and then have a seperate wire that gets a positave signal witch triggers them to fire.

Is this correct? I'm wanting to learn here.

Is there anywhere I can get more details about that e-dist? They are really vauge on the discription of what is required to run it and what systems its compatable with.
I think I kinda really want to stick with as much junkyard parts as I can, just to keep things simple to find parts for.

[EagleMark]

Useing a rare and possibly discontiued aftermarket part is not simple or sustainable... that's why guys like Dave, me, 1project2many and many more use factory stuff and if we have to make custom hard machined pieces to use them. Hard parts are unlikely to ever fail, electronics, sensors modules installed on them are easily replaced.

[1project2many]

Much of the hardware and software I use for tuning OBDI ecm's is becoming unobtanium these days. And around here it's starting to get harder to find parts for vehicles only 15 years old. Between technology changes, GM's bankruptcy, Cash for Clunkers, and the huge demand for steel a couple of years ago things just aren't what they used to be. So the arguments I once used for sticking with OEM stuff aren't as powerful as they used to be. I bought a new in box Edist a couple of years ago for $200 and I felt it was a fair price. A good aftermarket ignition system plus new distributor would cost more than that. http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/attachme ... -rev-f.pdf (http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/attachments/1837d1297351230-fast-classic-edis-edist-manual-rev-f.pdf)"


What I meant by wasted spark mode, was instead of firing the LS coils one at a time sequencially, fire two at a time.
I believe that's what was meant in the other thread, too. Not that the LSx coils have wasted spark mode, but that he wanted to fire two coils from one trigger supplied by a waste spark DIS. The trigger for the LSx coils is (as I thought) a 5V positive signal. There's a "REF LOW" connection which is a ground path directly back to the ecm. Now if you are a lucky kind of guy you might be able to apply 5V to the trigger line and ground the REF LOW through the ignition module, but I wouldn't expect that method to work.

It's probably much easier to use "dumb" coils like Ford, Chrysler, and Toyota use. I just looked at the schematic for a 2010 E250 w/ 5.4 and it looks like this is a typical 2 wire coil designed to attach right to a plug. We get 150 to 200k on these without much trouble, although they can burn through the boots if the plugs aren't changed frequently enough. You'll want to ensure the resistance of two coils together isn't substantially greater than the resistance of one DIS coil.

Oh, and you've got the basic idea for both the typical and "smart" coils. The smart coils are always connected to 12V ignition and Gnd. When they receive +5V on the trigger line they are "armed." If the signal drops to near 0 within about 8ms the coil will fire when the signal drops. However, if the 5V signal stays high for more than about 8ms the coil will fire at 8ms to prevent overheating and will not re-arm unless the 5V trigger signal drops then rises again.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Humm, so you think there might be a way to use the coils that actually mount directly to the plug, instead of the LS ones that mount to the valve covers?
I am not too up to speed on newer stuff, but dont most of those type of coils have a long "stem" of sorts that goes way down a hole to where the spark plug is? But mabey diffrent ones could be found.
What would I want to look for when digging through the junkyards? I could take my multimeter with me and check resistance. Any idea what the caddy coils resistance are? And when you say substantially greater, like how much? No more than X ammount?

[Six_Shooter]

A shutter wheel is still a "trigger wheel". ;)

IIRC the '0411 will support DIS directly, so that should be a non-issue using the right code. I'm not up to speed on the '0411 stuff because I don't want to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars just to be able to tune it (and not in real time), but there are a few threads on TGO about using the '0411 in non-stock applications that I've briefly read through.

[JeepsAndGuns]

I hate that those last few posts got lost in forum transfer. There was some good info in there.
Can you post up the coil ohms again for the northstar coils and the ford coils, I did not write them down.

[EagleMark]

I still can not find out how to fix old forum. Some guys were in there and posting just fine, some guys got a ERROR page. I logged out and then I got the error page! Until I can fix it, if your logged in grab those posts and put them here. This thread posts was the only important information we didn't get.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Well the posts went missing from the old board first. So there was nothing to transfer over to this one. So I think they are pretty much gone forever. Too bad, there was some good info in the ohms reply explaining how ohms work when wired up diffrently.

[EagleMark]

That sucks, i tried so hard not to loose a minute, I think I was doing an import when the system was doing an auto backup, site crashed 2 minutes after... lost 2 days dam it... :mad1:

[1project2many]

The real kicker for me was I'd left a window open to this thread in my pc and I had those posts there. When I got an error logging in in one window, I closed all of them. Maybe I can dig around the cache in my pc and see if I can find them. But if you search for "testing GM DIS coil" and "Ford DIS coil ohms" you should be able to get information.

To the guy wanting to mix and match sensors, ICMs, PCMs, and code, be careful of mixing parts. DIS systems are designed to interpret input signals of a specific type. The Northstar wheel is nothing like a 4 pulse wheel from a 5.7 Vortec. Using a 4 pulse wheel with the N* DIS module will result in no spark at all.

[Accrdwgnguy]

So I've been looking into doing this as I am building a car that will have little to no clearance at the firewall for a distributor, and it's a recycled junk build. So I'm talking to a local guy about making the wheels off of the CAD drawing from the Lukestaff site, and the guy said he'd be able to do it if the bottom corners of the notches can be a 1/16 radius. My question is would that affect the triggering at all? Instead of the sharp corners.

[???]

in my experience with the wheel. it seemed pretty sensitive. a buddy hand cut one, it was a bit thinner and touch bigger but still square corners. the car ran but timing wasn't right. if you invest in the effort to do this, I'd find a place that would cut it perfect. a few people have posted over they years they found places to do them, but only in quantity of 3 but for prettyccheap.


I'd think you could sell the extras. good luck. keep us posted. I still wanna get mine setup together, but just haven't

[Six_Shooter]

If someone does get some N* trigger wheels made, I'd be interested in picking up a couple or few... I plan to one day add N* DIS to a couple projects.

[1project2many]

If the depth of the notch is big enough then round corners will work. You will probably need to ensure the round cutter is 1/2 it's diameter past the depth of the squared holes. Then again, I've seen some poorly made wheels IMO that seem to work despite a lack of care.

[JeepsAndGuns]

So I've been looking into doing this as I am building a car that will have little to no clearance at the firewall for a distributor, and it's a recycled junk build. So I'm talking to a local guy about making the wheels off of the CAD drawing from the Lukestaff site, and the guy said he'd be able to do it if the bottom corners of the notches can be a 1/16 radius. My question is would that affect the triggering at all? Instead of the sharp corners.

Why can he only do rounded corners? Any good machine shop should have a rotary table for their end mill. All they would need to do is mount it vertically and then use a end mill that is the same size as the width of the notches.

[icsamerica]

I have a N* wheel and bracket and my SBC 406 runs wheel with DIS but I have a few issues that I need help with...1. Run OK with 3.1L .BIN file with the fuel injector costant fudged but AFR's are all wrong when driving becuase $A1 bin def has no adjustment for dispacment or cylinder size.2. Super AJUP v5 bin with initial advance set to 70 and max advance set to 120 and higher runs OK for 20 seconds and dies suddenly. This bin has my fuel mapped right and was runnig fine so I know it not VATs.Any idea how I can get the Super AJUP to control the ignition correctly.

[Six_Shooter]

The min and max advance settings need to be correct, There's a value or two there that needs to be a negative number, I don't recall which one(s).

1project2many will have to chime in, he was the one that pointed me in the right direction with mine, when I switched from one scheme to use DIS to another. (adjusting scalers and tables vs using settings in a couple scalers, that follows the way GM did it.)

[icsamerica]

Thanks. That worked. I took me awhile to find the RET spark parameter in the DIN def.