installing aTBI

[p-townchris]

Hey guys found this site and you guys might be able to answer a questions or two.

Taking the motor and ecm and wiring harness from a 93 Buick roadmaster station wagon and dropping it in a 85 Sub with a 700r4
want to say ecm is 16136965 the only part i was not able to get was the obd connector well I got some of it not sure on the wiring of it. any help would be grateful.


cris

[EagleMark]

The 93 Roadmaster engine was TBI right? Has the air cleaner with 2 bolts holding in on? That engine has a differant distributor than most other V8 TBI engines, looks almost identical but sits a little lower so you need to keep it with motor, they don't change.

Here's a link to a home made wiring diagram there may be others...
http://www.chevythunder.com/16136965_ecm_diagram.htm

$62 Mask ID when you start to do chips and datalogging..

Not really sure what transmission came in the 93 Roadmaster? Or how the 700R4 was controlled in a carb truck?

Good luck!

[p-townchris]

Yea found that diagram helped out a lot got everything labeled. having a problem finding a diagram for the ALDL connector.
The tranny is basic 4 pin for the lockup got a convertor for the speedo to the VSS system
Hoping to start on it this weekend. will try to post pictures.

[EagleMark]

Pictures are pretty easy to post here, we have the size, file extensions etc.. set wide open to let most all documents in!

I attached a better wiring diagram for this ECM. It has 2 wires run to ALDL on it, but it looks to be the same as most C3 like a 1227747 except has a few extras.

A3 Dark Green/Yellow 428 Canister Purge Solenoid
C1 Black/Pink 429 Air Divert Solenoid
C2 Dark Green/White 459 AC Compensation Relay Control
C8 Light Blue/Orange 495 Power Steering Pressure Switch
C12 Tan 472 MAT (or IAT) Signal

[p-townchris]

OK got started today here's pictures.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65 ... CI0204.jpg (http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/p-townchris/DSCI0204.jpg)" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65 ... CI0207.jpg (http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/p-townchris/DSCI0207.jpg)" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65 ... CI0209.jpg (http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/p-townchris/DSCI0209.jpg)" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
old one

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65 ... CI0211.jpg (http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/p-townchris/DSCI0211.jpg)" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

new going in.

cris

[EagleMark]

Well you got a big project going on!

Nice Shop! What's all that blue equipment in background? Looks like an air compressor, welder, generator and I really don't know what they are? And an airport tug?

[p-townchris]

Yea I go all out sometime.

Yes there diver's breathing air compressor's', parts of generators. (second job)I work for ship hull cleaning company.
Yea the crane's cool they bought it a government auction years ago thing back in the '80

cris

[p-townchris]

update

It's been fairly painless so far motor's in then back out (bolted flex plate in backwards :mad1: ) then in again. Wiring has been to bad hardest part making sure what gets 12vdc all the time and make sure what gets 12vdc with the key on. Turned it over tonight and nothing :nono: found out no voltage to injectors. So should have that straight tomorrow night and maybe I've done everything right. More photos soon.

chris

[EagleMark]

Well remember the ECM needs a power all the time. Then, ususally the pink wire needs power with key on AND all the way to crank and back to key on. Easiest way to do this is take the wire from your points or old HEI ignition and let it energize a relay. HTH!

[p-townchris]

ITS ALIVE :jfj:

Found two 12v source's for check engine light and one for the injectors didn't fire up right away, distributor 180 out got that right then she fired up ran nice and smooth


chris

[EagleMark]

:jfj:

:thumbsup:

:wtg:

:happy:

:ttwwop:

[p-townchris]

Update got truck up and running had an issue with the engine temp. It's was running to cool with a 195 thermostat engine barely got over 185 finally got a 205 thermostat in it and got the temp up to 190 to 195, chasing that issue and hunting every weekend plus working two jobs hasn't left me with any time. Now the kick in the head problem I now have gas mileage BLOWS around town it's not bad but on the highway I might get 10. Thinking about installing a different ECM Oh yea can't get a shop to even talk to me about my problem.

Have a 16136965 (http://wiki.3400z24.com/index.php?title=16136965&action=edit) in the truck now going try to find a 1227747 (http://wiki.3400z24.com/index.php?title=1227747&action=edit) to drop in any thoughts??

cris



http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/p-townchris/DSCI0212.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/p-townchris/DSCI0214.jpg

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh65/p-townchris/DSCI0222.jpg

[EagleMark]

Have you got any data logs?

Have you tuned changed the bin at all?

Do you have any error codes?

Do you have an EGR valve?

Where is your MAT sensor located? It has to be where the ECM thinks it is. Some are in manifold and some are in air filter. Makes a big difference. I know in the B body Caprice that uses this ECM it is in the air filter. Not sure where it was in a F body Camaro? What bin are you running? I think a B body would be a better start for a truck conversion.

No real reason to change from a 160 baud ECM with MAT to a 160 baud ECM with no MAT...

[dave w]

Have a 16136965 (http://wiki.3400z24.com/index.php?title=16136965&action=edit) in the truck now going try to find a 1227747 (http://wiki.3400z24.com/index.php?title=1227747&action=edit) to drop in any thoughts??

cris

I don't think there are significant gains for changing the 16136965 ECM to a 1227747 ECM. Are you thinking of using the 1227747 because the "chip will be for a pickup" or because the 1227747 is a pickup ECM and the "Factory must have good reasons for having a pickup ECM and a car ECM"? The basic reason for a pickup ECM and car ECM is emissions!

My thinking is the 1228747 is a better pickup ECM than the 1227747 ECM. The downside to the 1228747 is the lack of support software. The 1228747 has factory chips that are better suited for swapping in a TBI than the 1227747 chips. The wiring is the same for both the 1228747 and 1227747.

dave w

[1project2many]

But I would consider using the car ecm for the IAT and the native highway fuel and spark modes. I helped install a modified 305 TBI into a 1/2 ton truck that would get 22 mpg highway and burn the tires like a 350. Mods were 1.6 rockers, shorty headers, and a modified TBI intake manifold plus custom chip.

[p-townchris]

eagle no no no yes yes

will try to get some data to post not real savvy when it comes to messing with or trying to change the program in the ECM.

yes dave that's my thinking and it might be easier for me cant find a shop here for any help

cris

[1project2many]

If I may, I've spent a lot of time in my career fixing mistakes made at other garages. Chances are you're going to have trouble even with a truck ecm. The right shop will work with almost any combination but lesser shops are going to shy away from any conversion. This isn't rocket science. You're asking people to work on computers that are over 20 years old. There's nothing new here. Find a place you like, build a rapport with the owner or a tech, let them know that you're not a hack, and they'll probably be willing to assist. It doesn't hurt to bring in coffee and donuts, either.

Or you could learn the skills to diagnose it yourself. There are a few jobs that are easier with special tools but the old C3 systems can be worked on with pretty basic tools. Always cover basics first. The engine should run smoothly with no substantial shaking or misfires. Set and check timing using the "check timing" procedure in the service manual. For the cars, sometimes you were supposed to jumper two terminals of the ALDL connector. Make sure the vacuum lines are all connected correctly. Make sure your sensors are hooked up properly as well. Much of what I repair is due to basic issues, especially when someone has just worked on a vehicle.

[dave w]

yes dave that's my thinking and it might be easier for me cant find a shop here for any help

cris
In my neighborhood, the local shops will not want to work on a vehicle with a TBI conversion. If your interested, some of us here at Gearhead EFI can offer some suggestions to changing the ECM program. Basically, a data log and the original chip program are all that is required to reprogram the chip.

dave w

[PJG1173]

same in my town. the performance shops here are under the misconseption that you can't build any power with a tbi so why bother messing with it. I'm out to prove them wrong. The shop that I work at part time will not go near it tuning for liability reasons. we'll do plug in tuners stuff like that no problem. finding a reputable shop that can do tuning is hard to find at least around here. Although we don't shy away from engine swaps or trouble shooting them, if tuning is required its on the customer.

[EagleMark]

same in my town. the performance shops here are under the misconseption that you can't build any power with a tbi so why bother messing with it. I'm out to prove them wrong.They are just misinformed, if they were informed they would know you have nothing to prove. Already done! :thumbsup:

p-townchris you already have the skills to do a conversion, you can easily pick up the tuning and data acqusition end. We have all the tech here and you have all the help here!

[p-townchris]

have access to an OTC 4000e code reader can see real time data with it while driving also.Trying to find a way to down load data to computer. What info do I need to be looking for out of the ordinary

cris

[EagleMark]

That's a big question! First error codes... TPS voltage at idle should be close to .54 volts... engine off key on watch TPS voltage and open throttle slowly and should increase voltage smoothly... O2 sensor reading... just tell us what you got and if you can get a recording we can open we can take a look.

Time for you to get a cable and TunerPro!

[dave w]

That's a big question! First error codes... TPS voltage at idle should be close to .54 volts... engine off key on watch TPS voltage and open throttle slowly and should increase voltage smoothly... O2 sensor reading... just tell us what you got and if you can get a recording we can open we can take a look.

Time for you to get a cable and TunerPro!

I'm going to agree with Mark. The scan tool is excellent for troubleshooting problems for a stock vehicle, with all the stock equipment connected to the ECM. For a retro-fit TBI, the scan tool is very useful after the chip has been reprogrammed for the kind of changes that are common to retro-fitting a TBI. The goal is to get information (data log) from the TBI computer so a chip can be burned / re-programmed. A scan tool is not capable of doing the comprehensive data logging required for chip burning / re-programming.

dave w

[1project2many]

The old OTC4000 was a bit faster than the 2000, but they both earned the nickname "SlowTC" in my book. But if you're short on cash and it's free, it can be made to work. Those tools were designed to be used by technicians when diagnosing problems, not by tuners, so they only display a small amount of data on the screen and it's not always easy to view it while driving. Some of the OTC tools could record data to an external device or save short runs in memory but you're not going to be able to post that data in a format that others can understand if you want help. Tuning and viewing by yourself is tricky at best and dangerous at worst, so for safety's sake it's best if you can get an assistant for viewing / driving.

Long ago I used a SlowTC 2000 on platforms which didn't have support in laptop based commercial software. When I found a better alternative I quickly put the 2000 on Ebay. I would never recommend buying one over getting the equipment to use the laptop based software and I would suggest you look into building or buying the cable necessary to use the software most people here are using, TunerPro.