Food for thought

[Caleditor]

Tom and I were talking a few weeks back about going about the lack of TC issue anther way

This is all is hypothetical

What if we came up with a new software package that allowed a user to use the TC VDF’s as the dbf’s . We talked about a couple of ways to do that and one way will allow you to compare unalike OS’s.
We also have a way to stop VDF sharing and we would implement this and have an option to pull the plug on anyone that violates the agreements. We would think that John would be happy selling VDF’s and WinFlash. We would be happy with our software sales

We are looking at an alternative to WF also. The calibration contains a hell of a lot more information than you would think.

As a matter of fact I can proof it. I have a NON Global Electrical Architect Vehicle and it shows flash counts
just talking out load and all hypothetically

[EagleMark]

My first thought is... if this is legal with software licensing on TunerCat and we have Johns blessing? Then all is well. :thumbsup:

He has done more for the DIY EFI tuning community then any other software company and all at a fair price for a great product. Probably has been screwed more too and we don't it here!

TunerCat definitions are always a good thing! Seem to always have an edge on others. The drawback is of course the restrictions after sale to Jet DST and lack of software updates.

[Caleditor]

We would not sell any VDF's. Our software would need a key code that would lock the VDF to our software and if you hack our lock and share we will lock down our software

[EagleMark]

Locking software globally would screw everyone? Not just some hackers? I must not understand that correctly but like the protection thought. No one would be intrested if it could become useless and stop working at some point?

What would I do with my VDFs as I own them all? Not sure if I would want them locked to new software and not be able to use in TunerCat? Even more so with sentence above ^^

Just trying to help think this through with you...

Seems like a bigger issue is items missing or needed in the definitions which is something you have the capabilities of fixing or adding. There is a VDF editor to change and add to definitions but it's not much help without dissasembly skills...

[Caleditor]

people have been trading VDF's for years. John looses out. John has away currently to keep the trading down, but I am not going into that. If we came out with a software package that has nothing to do with John at all other than it excepts his VDF's then JET will have not say in it. John will be selling his VDF's and possibly WF, but I think we can come up with a better package

[EagleMark]

Well the TunerCat OBDII software could use an update. So say your software is up to date, comparable to what's available like EFI Live, HP Tuners or TunerPro RT.

What's it going to use for a data logger?

Still need a flash program and TunerCat WinFlash is listed as $300 if he will sell them? Right now it is to dealers/TunerCat OBDII owners.

LS1 Flash and a cable that will be available for sale to public soon with no licensing restrictions for $400. Cables are expensive!

$80 for each definition if TunerCat will sell them.

There's $380 to start. How much for your software?

Still need a data logger, how much?

TunerPro RT is $39 and files are wide open for editing, it is what a tuner software tool should be like. Already has a LS1 definition/xdf and already has a data logger/adx which includes AD inputs for Wide Band O2 for the 0411 PCM. Along with LS1 Flash with cable that has the AD ports for Wide Band O2. Right now covers only one, but the main need of all LS engines. Total cost to get going is $439.

[1project2many]

Without information from TC describing how the VDF is formatted, you're going to have to reverse engineer the file. Most software agreements call this a no-no. Additionally, TC VDF sales may be limited to people who have licensed copies of TC OBDII. No need making software to use a definition you can't get.

I can remember issues with LT1Edit. Valid calls for lost or damaged cables resulted in "Buy another software package." because of policy on part of authors that any call was due to piracy. It was unpopular. What would happen if a person called you with issue that wasn't their fault? Is that person going to continue to be locked down bad guy pirate hacker? Imagine how good life would be if your first speeding ticket landed you in jail for life.

Just to play Devil's advocate, should you really be working as the VDF Police when you offer to unlock other tuner's locked pcm's for a fee? Aren't you only inviting someone to offer an "unlock" service for your software?

An unofficial policy might be to offer a service for converting VDF's to your definition format. Charge a small fee per definition unless the person asking to convert can show proof of purchase or is licensed with TC. Then do it for free. Why the charge? Kick it back to John. If your software becomes popular then people with illegal VDF's are still going to contribute to TC. No questions asked. And you might even bring in new customers who are currently unable to get TC.

The state of the art today imo would put scanning and tuning in one package with some cool tools included for auto VE and / or spark corrections based on logs. Additionally, software might come with some very cool references or tools for installing some of the more common or known injectors. Having to search for injector corrections for parts that have been around for 15 years is just old news.

Ultimately I'd love to see the one definition, one car and pay-per-use models go away. John sold licensing to Jet for a reason... maybe he wasn't getting anywhere near the revenue he thought with his approach. But he's still making VDF's and I'd love to see a way for those definitions to get used by non-Jet users and generate money for TC.

[Six_Shooter]

Ultimately I'd love to see the one definition, one car and pay-per-use models go away.

I agree.

I haven't found a good reason for the current pay per use idea other than greed.

[RobertISaar]

lack of competition without that licensing scheme. if you can charge people more, why not do so?



of course, i have a pretty bad business sense, i just give stuff away unless it's physical.

[Caleditor]

We would not be opening the VDF's or reverse engineering them at all. We own TC, JET's DTS, Moates TC Road Runner, Wester's Duramax Diesel Tuner and they are all the same program. This is why JET never paid Westers for the diesel program.


What Tom and I were talking about was 100% hypothetical.

Our software would use TC VDF's. The VDF's are just templates that the software uses to edit a calibration. Think of it as a road map. Another name for a VDF is a Data base File (DBF). A DBF is like a spread sheet with reference numbers. If you have used EFILive you know what I am talking about. Say parameter B1203 Min Inj Pulse --- Min Inj Pulse is always B1203. In the DBF you add B1203 to a column in the Min Inj Pulse row. This is how you can compare unalike OS's in other software brands

Looks like this

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h361/PCMCalibrator/Hex%20Work/DBF/1_zpsa20f23d5.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/PCMCalibrator/media/Hex%20Work/DBF/1_zpsa20f23d5.jpg.html) and expands like this http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h361/PCMCalibrator/Hex%20Work/DBF/2_zps8691f211.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/PCMCalibrator/media/Hex%20Work/DBF/2_zps8691f211.jpg.html)


http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h361/PCMCalibrator/Hex%20Work/DBF/4_zps2281d3ed.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/PCMCalibrator/media/Hex%20Work/DBF/4_zps2281d3ed.jpg.html)

This is not very organizedhttp://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h361/PCMCalibrator/Hex%20Work/DBF/3_zps0151113c.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/PCMCalibrator/media/Hex%20Work/DBF/3_zps0151113c.jpg.html)

[1project2many]

I understand hypothetical. You guys are proposing a way to keep TC files alive and active and that's great. But hypothetically, if you're Jet, and you see someone using part of your tool to take away your market, what would you do?

The programs are the same, but not. The definition files are the same, but not. Definition files are password tied to the program they are sold for. IIRC the licensing for a definition states that if you make a definition it belongs to you. If you modify an existing definition ownership remains with the original author. Are you even allowed, per TC licensing agreement, to lock someone else's definition file?

I can't find a current Jet product which supports the 6.5 diesel. Are you telling me Jet's selling them unlicensed? AFAIK those files are Lyndon's and he gets pretty upset if they get used improperly or without permission. Even TC never marketed them so I don't know how Lyndon would react if you called to ask for the password for his definition file in order to run it in TCII or in Jet's program. But I have a hunch.

The data in those tables shows where variables are stored within a calibration. What I'm talking about is where the data is stored in the definition file and how the file is laid out. Without that information it seems like you will have trouble making headway. But maybe you have a different approach in mind.

You know, here's another idea. Why not set up tuning software so it has to be "renewed" or "re-licensed" every now and again. Charge nothing for the re-licensing but tie it to ISP or other information that's not going to change too frequently for most users. Allow a path to re-license if ISP of requesting machine is different than expected but include several different security checks. It might be a PITA but it will reduce program usage by anyone but licensed users. Tie definition file "renewal" to software updates as well and cross check defs being used against database of licensed users. Downside is a casual user can get stuck if server's down or trying to tune while away from 'net access but there may be ways to include backup plan there, too.

So...

Iif you're asking if independent software that can use VDF's is a cool idea, I say yes, absolutely.

If you're asking how people feel about locking down software at the first indication of sharing then I don't think a "one strike" rule is appropriate.

If you're asking about using VDF's, I say please make sure all your ducks are in a row before releasing anything.

[roughneck427]

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Majority of the DIY TC users I think wouldn't even use it. TC IMO works just fine maybe just ad your compare deal to current TC deal with John

[Hog]

People do share, VDF's, I dont know how much of an issue it really is though. Once you have a VDF illegaly, you can never go to John to get it updated, your scamming self is dependant on your scamming source of the scammed VDF's.
Heck they are only $80 a piece (Lyndons 6.5 diesel VDF's for TC2 are $100 and yoi cant read the PCM), but people are cheap. Have I shared, no, have I asked for VDF's, yes-once and at the time I really didnt realize what I was doing-but was promptly denied the files.

All the TC/Westers GMT stuff is similar, but not the same. Westers GMT and his Diesel are password protected, there are little intricacies about each program.

I cant believe that Jet DST is using the Diesel stuff without paying. But I found it at the Jet site for download Heck Jet is way back at 2.01. TC is at 3.18.
FREE! Dynamic Spectrum Tuner Diesel Demo Version (http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DSTDieselDemoSetup.exe)
(http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DSTDieselDemoSetup.exe)
Click Here to Download the Diesel Version (http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DDST_setup.exe)

While the DST program will run on virtually any PC running Windows 95 or later, we recommend the following minimum PC specifications:

Pentium 266
Windows 98
64 MB RAM
800 x 600 display resolution
20 MB free hard drive space
9 pin serial connector or 9 pin serial to USB adapter

peace
Hog

[Hog]

Ultimately I'd love to see the one definition, one car and pay-per-use models go away. John sold licensing to Jet for a reason... maybe he wasn't getting anywhere near the revenue he thought with his approach. But he's still making VDF's and I'd love to see a way for those definitions to get used by non-Jet users and generate money for TC.
back when John sold TC2 to Jet, said that he didnt want to get such a large customer base that he couldnt privide support. So he cut himself a slice and sold the rights to Jet.

Yes Johns still making VDF's, and you and I are using those VDF's, we are non-Jet customers making for John. So long as everyone doesnt scam the VDF. Unless you mean making money for those VDF's in some other fashion?

John provides great support, better than others.

peace
Hog

[Caleditor]

Thanks Paul. ----- we would lock down our software if the wrong VDF is applied. I think John's VDF's sale would go up a little

[Caleditor]

People do share, VDF's, I dont know how much of an issue it really is though. Once you have a VDF illegaly, you can never go to John to get it updated, your scamming self is dependant on your scamming source of the scammed VDF's.
Heck they are only $80 a piece (Lyndons 6.5 diesel VDF's for TC2 are $100 and yoi cant read the PCM), but people are cheap. Have I shared, no, have I asked for VDF's, yes-once and at the time I really didnt realize what I was doing-but was promptly denied the files.

All the TC/Westers GMT stuff is similar, but not the same. Westers GMT and his Diesel are password protected, there are little intricacies about each program.

I cant believe that Jet DST is using the Diesel stuff without paying. But I found it at the Jet site for download Heck Jet is way back at 2.01. TC is at 3.18.
FREE! Dynamic Spectrum Tuner Diesel Demo Version (http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DSTDieselDemoSetup.exe)
(http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DSTDieselDemoSetup.exe)
Click Here to Download the Diesel Version (http://www.jetchip.com/downloads/DDST_setup.exe)

While the DST program will run on virtually any PC running Windows 95 or later, we recommend the following minimum PC specifications:

Pentium 266
Windows 98
64 MB RAM
800 x 600 display resolution
20 MB free hard drive space
9 pin serial connector or 9 pin serial to USB adapter

peace
Hog
I am not saying to Hack TC and Wester's, but if you were take a look into Wester's program he sold to JET you will find C.A.T.S. in the file. That ends all of the BS and that is why someone never got paid. When JET found C.A.T.S. I am sure they we own the rights al ready

[roughneck427]

How much would your deal be and what benefits over what TC is now besides comparing non matching OS calibrations? I know there is a free LS1 flash tool in the works and a xdf file for tunerpro. I've have efi live and tunercats for quite a few years now I sold hptuners due to the messed up credit system. John has been very fair with him keeping support up.

[Caleditor]

Lets take a look at this


Would any company stick money into software for a ten year old product? NO


In 2004 GM started with CAN vehicles and they have become the normal. If you look at just the CAN side of it and forget about Gen III PCM's then it all make more sense. I am looking at 2013/14 vehicles, be cause that is what I am tuning. TunerPro CAN NOT support most CAN ECM's. The EPA says if the vehicle is older than 10 model years old it is past it's life cycle. If it is older than 2004 than the EPA says it does not care about them. They are junk


Lets say we go $500 with a cable for the software and you pay $80 for the VDF's you will be better off. If you get the VDF editor then you can edit the VDF's as needed.


I am having a hard time coming up with a comparison this second. I hope you can follow me with this
You have a video game DVD and it will represent the VDF and this game will play in a Mac or a PC. Or even a PlayStation or Xbox. The game is the VDF and the console is the software.

[Caleditor]

How much would your deal be and what benefits over what TC is now besides comparing non matching OS calibrations? I know there is a free LS1 flash tool in the works and a xdf file for tunerpro. I've have efi live and tunercats for quite a few years now I sold hptuners due to the messed up credit system. John has been very fair with him keeping support up.


A new user could use our software and John's VDF's for newer cars cheaper than HPT

[RobertISaar]

so, in short, what you are proposing is simply getting around needing to buy the roadrunner to use tunercat OBD2 products?

[Caleditor]

I would think so


We would just like to enhance TC and bring it back to the market.

[Montecarlodrag]

A good scanner/datalogger that matches HPT/EFIlive would raise TC sales a lot, much more than another tuning program

[Caleditor]

That should not be an issue with the 852 cable or even another cable. It took me many years to find a legal copy of TC.

[1project2many]

There was a freeware program called UVScan which had promise. I use it with my AVT cable. There weren't many users and interest sort of waned until the author just didn't renew the domain.

MXScan has never worked well for me.

[EagleMark]

I would think so


We would just like to enhance TC and bring it back to the market.If the VDFs were made available to the public? There would be no need for new software. Just make the VDF work in TunerPro RT, then the scanner is built in. Only problem is a flash cable which could also be available from TC or LS1 Flash.


A good scanner/datalogger that matches HPT/EFIlive would raise TC sales a lot, much more than another tuning programSee Above^


There was a freeware program called UVScan which had promise. I use it with my AVT cable. There weren't many users and interest sort of waned until the author just didn't renew the domain.

MXScan has never worked well for me.Scan XL Pro works well, but not free. But then again there is already TunerPRo ADX files so...

[Caleditor]

YOU CAN NOT TUNE THE NEWER ECM's WITH TunerPro

[EagleMark]

Works for me?

TunerPRo is also doing some updates to make ADX data logging easier.

[Caleditor]

How do you do you do the checksums on the 2M ECM's

[EagleMark]

Never done a 2mb PCM, but if it is an issue I'll have Mark M fix it.

[1project2many]

Can't do scan or editing? Editing needs multiple checksums in same cal? Could do some workarounds such as multiple definitions for each section of cal, or could write separate program like old time Tunercat checksum utility for OBDI. That is, if a fix is not forthcoming.

[Caleditor]

Ummmmmmm ???? 5315

[EagleMark]

Fixed, but we have threads for bins by year if you'd like to add them.

[Caleditor]

Fixed, but we have threads for bins by year if you'd like to add them.
I have over 1000 files and most are bin files. We have a private repository of tuned and Good OE bin files that we use when we repair PCM and ECM's. They are all linked up, so if Tom adds a bin it will show on my laptop or desktop.

Can you find the checksums without EFILive? I can find them all and the CVN's within a few minutes

[Caleditor]

Download this link
http://www.tunercat.com/obd2/updates/Pcm.exe

Unzip it
You should see a pcm.dat named file
Then
Right click and open it in Excel
Yeah john added something for me today.
OK back to the lesson
Clear the RX letters out of the top box
Next Click on the A column
Next Click on the Data Tab at the top
Next clect on the Text to Column tab
Select the Delimited and the Click Next
Uncheck the Tab and check the Comma
Then click Finished

Now in Type tthe folloing in the cells
Cell 1A Type OS
Cell 1B Type PCM #
Cell 1C Type Security Algo
Cell 1D Type Read Algo
Cell 1E Type Program Algo
Cell 1F Type # of Cal Modules
Cell 1G Type VDF #

The rest of thye cells have to do with module length

Now apply the filter to it. You will find this under the data tab also

[EagleMark]

You can't unzip a .exe file?

[Caleditor]

My instructions above state download it and then unzip it. I use 7zip

[Caleditor]

Download this link
http://www.tunercat.com/obd2/updates/Pcm.exe

Unzip it
You should see a pcm.dat named file
Then
Right click and open it in Excel
Yeah john added something for me today.
OK back to the lesson
Clear the RX letters out of the top box
Next Click on the A column
Next Click on the Data Tab at the top
Next clect on the Text to Column tab
Select the Delimited and the Click Next
Uncheck the Tab and check the Comma
Then click Finished

Now in Type tthe folloing in the cells
Cell 1A Type OS
Cell 1B Type PCM #
Cell 1C Type Security Algo
Cell 1D Type Read Algo
Cell 1E Type Program Algo
Cell 1F Type # of Cal Modules
Cell 1G Type VDF #

The rest of thye cells have to do with module length

Now apply the filter to it. You will find this under the data tab also
I screwed this part
Cell 1A Type OS
Cell 1B Type PCM #
Cell 1C Type # of Segments or Cal modules
Cell 1D Type Security Algo
Cell 1E Type Read Algo
Cell 1F Type Program Algo
Cell 1G Type VDF #

[RobertISaar]

it's a self-extracting archive. i opened it up via openoffice and everything looked how it should.

[Caleditor]

You can self extract to your desktop I guess. I just use 7zip sooooo much I am used to right clicking to extract

[EagleMark]

My instructions above state download it and then unzip it. I use 7zipI did download it, but it's not a zip file so why unzip it? It's an executable file?

If you have a way to turn it to a spreadsheet you could have just attached it?


it's a self-extracting archive. i opened it up via openoffice and everything looked how it should.I have a PCM.dat file in my TC folder, how did your open it to a spreadsheet with Open Office? I don't have excel... only think I get is a word file. If I open the .exe its jiberish...

[1project2many]

Mark, the executable is just an update to tunercats pcm.dat file. Run it and it will unzip itself.

Open the file that unzips in excel or open office. It's like the logs from older versions of TP. Comma delineated.

The next step is to add headings to the columns.

[Caleditor]

In my opinion you should have MS access anyway. If you had Access you would see the big picture. DHP's PowerTuner and TinyTuner are both Access based. I would go out on a limb and say EFILive is

[Playtoy_18]

I gotta say I had no idea TC VDF theft was actually an issue.
I know several users,and none have ever asked me and i've definately never offered.I've got over half the VDF's at least,and paid for every one.
I still send an email every time I buy a new one,starts out everytime thanking him for the great program.
About to pick up and check out some of the diesel vdf's from lyndon as well probably.

[1project2many]

The OBDI stuff really gets handed around. OBDII is less likely because there aren't many TCII owners. It seems like several decent forums really stick to the idea to pay for the software so that helps, too.

Make sure you order the TC definition file from Lyndon, not the one for his software.

[EagleMark]

In my opinion you should have MS access anyway. If you had Access you would see the big picture. DHP's PowerTuner and TinyTuner are both Access based. I would go out on a limb and say EFILive isI've been using Open Office for years and this is the first time I could not open as you were instructing? I'm just a novice with office software. Now that it was posted as an Excel file it opens fine in Open Office... and I see what you mean. Lots of good information there!

[Caleditor]

That's just a look up table sheet. This is how MS access works. I have another link that might shed light on a very BASIC programming structure that is not encrypted. At the bottom of this page you will see a file named database. download it and open it if you can find away. http://www.theblattners.com/projects/tinytuner/Default.html it is in Access and before I had Access I could view the content, but I am old and can not remember how I did it way back then. DHP's PowerTuner is similar if I remember correctly. Now put all of this together and think about why EFILive uses a code for every parameter and why the code is the same for every alike parameter.

[Hog]

I am not saying to Hack TC and Wester's, but if you were take a look into Wester's program he sold to JET you will find C.A.T.S. in the file. That ends all of the BS and that is why someone never got paid. When JET found C.A.T.S. I am sure they we own the rights al ready
Wow, Lyndon must be fuming. I always thought he would never sell his diesel stuff, esp. the 6.5 TD stuff to anyone. I remember him saying. "Jet will never get my 6.5 TD stuff" Weird.


peace
Hog

[Caleditor]

Not sure if I understand this yet. Lyndon sold his diesel stuff to Jet.

1)Did he sell both the Duramax AND the 6.5 TD stuff? Lyndon said he would never let go of 6.5TD. I'm surprised.
2) WHat BS are you talking about.

You said "When JET found C.A.T.S. I am sure they we own the rights already"
3) So Lyndon sold his diesel stuff to Jet, his stuff had some CATS stuff in it. Did Lyndon get paid for his doesel stuff from Jet.
4)Or are you saying that John didnt get paid because Lyndons diesel stuff included Johns CATS stuff and Jet said "ok we allready own CATS so we dont have to pay for this CATS/Lyndon/diesel stuff.
5) Who ownes who money.
6) Is there an issue between Lyndon and John?

Confusing information on the internet, again.Wow, Lyndon must be fuming.

I always thought he would never sell his diesel stuff, esp. the 6.5 TD stuff to anyone. I remember him saying. "Jet will never get my 6.5 TD stuff" Weird.


peace
Hog

The program JetChips sold at one time was called Jet DDST. I am not sure if that is the same program they have listed currently under Dynamic Spectrum Tuning (DST) or not. Currently Jet has 3 versions of DST. It looks like #14005 is for Gas Class II, #14007 is for Gas CAN ECM's and #14006 is the Diesel program. This fits 2001 to 2005 LB7 & LLY. In the conversations I had with Lyndon he told me that the DDST program was his. I may have misunderstood him and it is possible that he just built the VDF's. Lyndon posted on Mondax that he never got a dime from JET.

I am saying that Jet never paid Lyndon, because Lyndon's software is built by C.A.T.S. and Jet had purchased the OBDII tuner.

[Caleditor]

Wow, Lyndon must be fuming. I always thought he would never sell his diesel stuff, esp. the 6.5 TD stuff to anyone. I remember him saying. "Jet will never get my 6.5 TD stuff" Weird.


peace
Hog

Jet could never ever sell the 6.5L legally in the US. I am under the impression that it comes down to the ability to read out the PCM. Most of the non supported GM PCM's/ECM's have the memory broken apart and stored on different chips. You would need to be able to read the calibration out correctly from all of the chips. I am under the impression the 6.5L can not be readout with a cable. The PCM/ECM need to be disassembled.

[Hog]

OK thanks AJ. I always thought Lyndon built the 6.5 tuner so that it couldnt read ECM's on purpose, so as to prevent people form copying diesel shops calibrations. But that doesnt seem to be the way things are. Thanks
peace
Hog

[Caleditor]

OK thanks AJ. I always thought Lyndon built the 6.5 tuner so that it couldnt read ECM's on purpose, so as to prevent people form copying diesel shops calibrations. But that doesnt seem to be the way things are. Thanks
peace
Hog


NO


Some PCM's can not be read. Most of the Northstar PCM's, Saturn PCM's, 6.5L, and a few others. The 96 to 99 Northstar PCM's I feel could be read out, but sense part of the flash is on the CPU chip and 2 PLCC32 chips, It also has 2 CPU's and it would take a lot to get it out correctly. The 2000 to 2005 Northstar PCM are not a Delco/Delphi and that do not use Motorola CPU's. From my understanding the AVT cable will not read them for that reason. The old 1998 LS1 uses a PSOP44 like the 1999+ do, but the flash is partially flashed on the CPU. You know how those PCM's like to brick, so you could double that with the old Northstar's. I have software that will tune the old Northstar PCM's, but getting the flash to tune is tricky. You can not acquire them from legally from GM's TIS. I am not sure if the newer LML Duramax ECM's can be read without opening them up and modifying the board or not.

My understanding of the 6.5L is that TC can not read the ECM because it is not readable. I am sure if you pull it apart you can read the memory out. You could also acquire it illegally from TIS as I would assume has been done

[1project2many]

The 6.5 pcm is not flash capable. Calibration changes require burning a new chip.

[Caleditor]

The 6.5 pcm is not flash capable. Calibration changes require burning a new chip.

I kind of thought that they uses a MemCal or Prom of some type

[Hog]

The 6.5 pcm is not flash capable. Calibration changes require burning a new chip.

ARe you sure. Why would there be TC2 VDF's if they are not flashable. Maybe some early 6.5's arent, but if you buy a Wester TC2 VDF I'm sure you can flash the PCM. You do have to supply Lyndon with the exact PCM you have, along with $100 for the VDF.,

peace
Hog

[1project2many]

I am sure the vans we use, model year 2000 and 2001 3500's, have the same chip assembly as older OBDI units.

TCII does not flash pcm's. It comes with a separate utility to flash pcm's. It's plausible that 1) the calibrations have enough similarity to other OBDII calibrations to require multi-checksum calculation and segment recognition that's available in TC OBDII, and / or 2) in order to keep software consistent the 1996 and newer 6.5's were grouped with other OBDII calibrations.

I wish I had time to follow up and straighten this out, if only for myself, but that's not likely to happen right now.

[Caleditor]

They use an OBD1 style ECM with a FLSAH chips. WinFlash can not read the ECM. This ECM was used from 1996 to 2002
Part Number: 16216588

5472

[Caleditor]

The 6.5l use an OBD1 style PCM. WinFlash cannot read this PCM
Part Number: 16216588

Maybe it can read them


OS
PCM Type
# Segments
Security Algo
Read Alog
Program Algo
VDF #


9350395T
16216588
1
3
13
12
OBD2_11_99



5473


OS
PCM Type
# Segments
Security Algo
Read Alog
Program Algo
VDF #


9350395T
16216588
1
3
13
12
OBD2_11_99

[roughneck427]

I had tried to read a 1999 6.5l 1 ton i emailed about the vdf and why i couldnt read it they can only be flashed and a calibration to your vin is given to you to edit when you buy the vdf

[Hog]

I am sure the vans we use, model year 2000 and 2001 3500's, have the same chip assembly as older OBDI units.

TCII does not flash pcm's. It comes with a separate utility to flash pcm's. It's plausible that 1) the calibrations have enough similarity to other OBDII calibrations to require multi-checksum calculation and segment recognition that's available in TC OBDII, and / or 2) in order to keep software consistent the 1996 and newer 6.5's were grouped with other OBDII calibrations.

I wish I had time to follow up and straighten this out, if only for myself, but that's not likely to happen right now. Apparently the 96-2003 6.5 ECM's CAN be flashed with TC2 calibrations using Winflash. I dont know whats up with your setup??
For 1996+ 6.5 Turbo Diesel programming
Dealers:

For 1996-2003 6.5 Turbo Diesel Trucks and H1 Hummer calibrations
You need to do the following:

1. DO NOT read the ECM for these models.
2. Query the computer/vehicle for VIN information.
3. Choose the correct calibration and make your changes.
4. Save the file with the correct VIN info in the calibration information box !
5. Turn on the ignition key and wait at least 30 seconds till glow plugs finish cycling.
6. Re-read Step 5. It's important !! A dead ECM can result unless the glow plug cycling finishes. Voltage is pulled so low at a glow plug cycle that
if you're programming in a GP cycle, it'll quit communicating.
7. Program as you normally would !
8. Road test and verify the performance gains. Some models will require you to re-tension the wastegate for the increased boost and airflow.


Lyndon, Owner
Westers Garage

peace
Hog

[Caleditor]

Correct they can only be programmed
THEY CAN NOT BE READ OUT!!!!!!!

How does anyone legally acquire a file?

[Caleditor]

On the legalities if the ECM cannot be read via the OBDII port then you cannot tune the PCM, end of story there.
I cannot say for sure if the ECM can be read by pulling it apart and hooking on equipment to read it that way using what is known as BDM or pulling the chip.
So how is a company supposed to get the stock tunes to then re-distribute to customers?
TIS2WEB clearly states in the Terms & Contract that any means of copying or distributing the files downloaded from TIS to your PC during a reflash is illegal

I have been told that some of the 6.5L were acquired illegally

[RobertISaar]

modifying the calibration on any vehicle is illegal... i don't see what makes this any different? just the acquisition method of the binary?

[Hog]

The 6.5's were around before TISweb became the sole source of calibrations? The files could have been obtained many moons ago, but who knows. And if they do, they arent going to discuss it on the interwebs.

peace
Pauly

[Caleditor]

modifying the calibration on any vehicle is illegal... i don't see what makes this any different? just the acquisition method of the binary?

It is not illegal to modify the calibration. How did you ever get that idea?


If you need me to start another trhread outlining the EPA standards I can

[Caleditor]

The 6.5's were around before TISweb became the sole source of calibrations? The files could have been obtained many moons ago, but who knows. And if they do, they arent going to discuss it on the interwebs.

peace
Pauly
Techline Information System (TIS) comes in a few forms. TIS has been around since OBD1 days

Way back in the old days the TIS system was called CAMS or T100. This was a Techline application.
Then THE TECHLINE (T-20, T-50, T-60) came out for use with the Tech I. This system used CD's that were loaded on the PC or server at the dealership. This system started with CD #13

Then we had TIS2000 that used CD's and now we have TIS2Web.
#53-65-08: SPS/FLASH EPROM PROGRAMMING - (Dec 5, 1995)

[RobertISaar]

It is not illegal to modify the calibration. How did you ever get that idea?


If you need me to start another trhread outlining the EPA standards I can
is modifying the calibration not tampering with emissions equipment?

[Caleditor]

is modifying the calibration not tampering with emissions equipment?
You may want to read up on that. Go to the EPA's website

[RobertISaar]

i can't find any info from the federal EPA yet, but the ohio division turned up a hit:



What is tampering?
According to Revised Code section 3704.16, tampering means "to remove permanently, bypass, defeat or render
inoperative, in whole or in part, any emission control system that is installed on or in a motor vehicle."

...

Tampering involves such acts as willfully removing the converter, air pump, computer controls, etc.


EGR deletes(whether hardware only, software only or both) are rampant on gasoline engines and from what i'm told, diesel as well. that alone certainly qualifies.

if people were only modifying fan temps or road speed constants to better match the equipment on their vehicles, that isn't much of an issue, but i see far worse than that on a daily basis.

i guess i need to see if the EPA has a reasonable expectation about what actually happens or if there is just a broad definition of "any change is unacceptable".

i've seen mention of EPA and even CARB approved aftermarket calibrations, so it seems like there are only specific things that aren't allowed to be altered.

[EagleMark]

Have you ever compared a CARB approved calibration to stock? What a joke!

CARB is a pretty lengthy process as well, basically a Detroit EFI engineer can do this and I've seen the process... It's been well worth the effort and cost when Howell did this long ago to make TBI work on Jeep I6 4.0L engines and they have sold a ,lot of systems. AFI has also done the same process but went for a more specific market of all the Airport equiptment, most all of them use six cylinder fords and for emmissions and fuel savings it was a big hit around the country.

[1project2many]

Apparently the 96-2003 6.5 ECM's CAN be flashed with TC2 calibrations using Winflash. I dont know whats up with your setup??
That's interesting. So the trucks and Hummers can be flashed. Our van pcm's may be similar units to the OBDI truck versions. If you remove the pcm and open the cover, you find a chip in a socket. Remove the chip and view the socket you'll see the word "BLUE" spelled out. This may have been possible because the vans, with a 10,000lb GVW, were not required to comply with light duty emissions standards so GM chose not to update that PCM? A quick look through the BCC database shows the last 6.5 diesel calibration released on a chip was released for the 1999 model year, BCC CMBA. Maybe the van I was working with was a 99, not a 2000, or maybe the chassis was built in '99 but the bus body was added in 2000 and sold as a 2000 model year. I'll have to look when I get to the shop.


Correct they can only be programmed
THEY CAN NOT BE READ OUT!!!!!!!

How does anyone legally acquire a file?

Caleditor, I think you're mixing up, or making up, rules. You obtain a calibration the same way you do with any other controller. You make a copy of it from the devise or location where it's stored.


TIS2WEB clearly states in the Terms & Contract that any means of copying or distributing the files downloaded from TIS to your PC during a reflash is illegal
Techline / TIS rules apply to using their software. The same rules apply to any J2534 pass-through device. The entire point of pass-through programming is to allow the aftermarket to reprogram or update vehicles with OEM calibrations without providing direct access to the calibration. Are you required to pass this notice to the vehicle owner when you use Techline software? Are you required to collect a signature of consent or agreement from the vehicle owner?

You've been bringing up legality repeatedly since you joined. You've made several statements which go against the grain of what most of us believe is true. You imply that you have some magical powers and are completely legal and safe where the rest of us are merely mortal and probably criminal to boot. Are you itching for a fight, so to speak?

My advise to others is to let this troll stay under his bridge for a bit.

[Playtoy_18]

I've always been told thru training that the PCM itself is an emissions device,same as a maf and that was why altering it was against the law.Same as if you solder a resistor into a maf and turn it into a granatelli clone,it is an altered emissions part.
It makes sense,since the pcm is included in federal emissions warranty. Can't remember when i've ever replaced one using emission warranty though.

Not that I really care about legality,I follow my own moral code-not the politicians.

[Caleditor]

someone must have missed this part of my signature
GM Technician since 1999
GM World Class Technician since 2009


The EPA has 3 classifications for vehicles that one could apply here.
#1 +2 to -2 years of the current model year -- I need to look up the title the EPA gives this
#2 -2 to -10 years of current model year -- This is the intermediate class
#3 Over 10 years old -- Out of life cycle -- this is concidered JUNK by the EPA. Look up what Out of Life Cycle means to the EPA

[Six_Shooter]

What's your signature have to do with anything?

I could post a whole bunch of credentials I have as well, but it doesn't really mean much...

[34blazer]

What's your signature have to do with anything?

I could post a whole bunch of credentials I have as well, but it doesn't really mean much...

This^

It's not about certs hanging on your wall.

[Caleditor]

You've been bringing up legality repeatedly since you joined. You've made several statements which go against the grain of what most of us believe is true. You imply that you have some magical powers and are completely legal and safe where the rest of us are merely mortal and probably criminal to boot. Are you itching for a fight, so to speak?

My advise to others is to let this troll stay under his bridge for a bit.

I am implying that the reason TC does not support older Northstar's and Saturn's and every other PCM that WinFlash can not read out is because the common person can not obtain a bin file to tune.

I am also implying that most of the bin files for these said cars came from TIS.

[Caleditor]

What's your signature have to do with anything?

I could post a whole bunch of credentials I have as well, but it doesn't really mean much...

I work at a GM dealership 6 days a week

[Six_Shooter]

I work at a GM dealership 6 days a week

Your point?

[1project2many]

We're a tough crowd here.


I am implying that the reason TC does not support older Northstar's and Saturn's and every other PCM that WinFlash can not read out is because the common person can not obtain a bin file to tune.

I am also implying that most of the bin files for these said cars came from TIS.

You can buy a pcm at the junkyard and it's yours to disassemble with no legal warnings or disclaimers. You can have your pcm reflashed at the dealer or an independent without signing any agreement not to reverse the box and without receiving any warnings. The message is intended for the technician and software subscriber, not the pcm owner. Once you have a programmed pcm, obtaining a legal copy of the calibration is as simple as reading it then storing it.

In most cases the average person can't obtain any bin files to tune unless they use Winflash to read the pcm first. So that would mean all calibrations and bin files should be off limits. If the bin files we can read are all from TIS, are you saying Saturn and Northstar calibrations are not available through TIS? Considering as how many CD's were thrown away by GM dealers in the '90s and early 2000s I'd be surprised if none of them have any of these calibrations.

You've been at the dealer since 1999. I've diagnosed and repaired vehicles with CAMS and maintained the T10 when it ran PCDOS and WFW 3.11 through subsequent OS upgrades. If you started in '99 you should remember programming back then. SPS did not have a warning about reading cals and neither did the Tech2 when you used it to transfer cals from SPS. Saturn and the older Northstar engines would have had any reprogramming done through that software vs TIS that's available today. The warning you see today would not apply to vehicles programmed with another programming tool.

[Caleditor]

We're a tough crowd here.



You can buy a pcm at the junkyard and it's yours to disassemble with no legal warnings or disclaimers. You can have your pcm reflashed at the dealer or an independent without signing any agreement not to reverse the box and without receiving any warnings. The message is intended for the technician and software subscriber, not the pcm owner. Once you have a programmed pcm, obtaining a legal copy of the calibration is as simple as reading it then storing it.

In most cases the average person can't obtain any bin files to tune unless they use Winflash to read the pcm first. So that would mean all calibrations and bin files should be off limits. If the bin files we can read are all from TIS, are you saying Saturn and Northstar calibrations are not available through TIS? Considering as how many CD's were thrown away by GM dealers in the '90s and early 2000s I'd be surprised if none of them have any of these calibrations.

You've been at the dealer since 1999. I've diagnosed and repaired vehicles with CAMS and maintained the T10 when it ran PCDOS and WFW 3.11 through subsequent OS upgrades. If you started in '99 you should remember programming back then. SPS did not have a warning about reading cals and neither did the Tech2 when you used it to transfer cals from SPS. Saturn and the older Northstar engines would have had any reprogramming done through that software vs TIS that's available today. The warning you see today would not apply to vehicles programmed with another programming tool.

I was in charge of updating TIS. I would say that I know someone that has most of the TIS CD's.

I was told that the EPA was going to come down on Monodax for having bin files stored. I am not sure if this is what happened or not. The source was a good source. I posted a lot of OE bin files on the website myself. I have posted how to get the raw bin files from TIS on a few websites. If I remember correctly Ross removed the steps from his forum.

Has anyone followed the LML tuning issue from the start? http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?17316-Possible-ways-of-tuning-the-LML

I can tune Northstar's. I own a PCM repair company. We repair PCM's when people mess with the part of the calibration that they shouldn't be touching and brick them. We pull good bin files, so it would be very easy to make the connection to how we have obtained the bin files. Currently I have 2415 bin file. Most of them we have tuned.

How many have you tuned?
Can you come up with software that will allow the user to use John's VDF's and Winflash?
We could do it all, but John has been very good to us. I have BETA VDF's that the public may never see. John has given me all of the VDF's by accident before and I still purchase VDF's that Tom or myself do not own. We would like to help take care of John

5498

[Caleditor]

We're a tough crowd here.



You can buy a pcm at the junkyard and it's yours to disassemble with no legal warnings or disclaimers. You can have your pcm reflashed at the dealer or an independent without signing any agreement not to reverse the box and without receiving any warnings. The message is intended for the technician and software subscriber, not the pcm owner. Once you have a programmed pcm, obtaining a legal copy of the calibration is as simple as reading it then storing it.

In most cases the average person can't obtain any bin files to tune unless they use Winflash to read the pcm first. So that would mean all calibrations and bin files should be off limits. If the bin files we can read are all from TIS, are you saying Saturn and Northstar calibrations are not available through TIS? Considering as how many CD's were thrown away by GM dealers in the '90s and early 2000s I'd be surprised if none of them have any of these calibrations.

You've been at the dealer since 1999. I've diagnosed and repaired vehicles with CAMS and maintained the T10 when it ran PCDOS and WFW 3.11 through subsequent OS upgrades. If you started in '99 you should remember programming back then. SPS did not have a warning about reading cals and neither did the Tech2 when you used it to transfer cals from SPS. Saturn and the older Northstar engines would have had any reprogramming done through that software vs TIS that's available today. The warning you see today would not apply to vehicles programmed with another programming tool.

Just by chance do you rebuild clusters in house and PCM's at the dealer?

[1project2many]

I've rebuilt clusters in the past. Once upon a time the dealer could order many of the parts and it was part of the tech's job to repair at component level. From time to time, if parts and information are available and time allows, I will rebuild same here now.

I rarely have access to new parts for pcm's and service information is nearly impossible to get but more than once I've taken apart one or two failed units and scrounged components to make one good one if there's an obvious issue.

[Caleditor]

I've rebuilt clusters in the past. Once upon a time the dealer could order many of the parts and it was part of the tech's job to repair at component level. From time to time, if parts and information are available and time allows, I will rebuild same here now.

I rarely have access to new parts for pcm's and service information is nearly impossible to get but more than once I've taken apart one or two failed units and scrounged components to make one good one if there's an obvious issue.
This is my thread
http://service-gm-forum.com/techforum1/index.php?showtopic=38863&st=0

Yeah I have done a few. 92 clusters this year so far

[1project2many]

Well, the more services you can offer the better. As long as you don't get stretched too thin. Much of what I do today is hobby level. I enjoy it but don't have the time anymore. Several years ago I bought a a few schematics for Delco radios when GM consolidated repair centers so I fix them once in a while, too.

Hmmm... I guess I can't check out the thread. I'm not a member of the forum.

FWIW if I had the time I could write software to use John's VDF's but without his blessing, I would never release it. I wrote software a few years ago that would fix the password in a TC definition file if you moved the file on the hard drive and then you couldn't open the def. I made sure it honored custom passwords for custom defs so you couldn't open a def if you didn't know the original pw. I sent it to John and asked if he had a problem with me releasing it. I got no reply, so I never released it. That's the way I am. I have most of the source code here to write an OBDII upload/download program including seed/key pairs and I have a neat idea about making a tool to do it but you know, there's the day job, and putting wood in the woodshed, and mowing the lawn, painting the barn, repairing the cars, watching the kids, keeping the wife from getting too stressed, on and on and on. So it doesn't get done. I'd love to but there's no time. Same reason I don't tune much anymore. I just don't have the time. Sometimes you make choices in life and end up going a very different direction than what you wanted.

[Hog]

Brag brag brag, who cares?, humility will always win over the braggart. We all enjoy what we do, it doesnt matter to others. WHo cares how many clusters, or how many different versions of software some stranger on the Webs does? I dont sit here and go on about Medicine as it matters to PCM recalibration about as much as GM recognition awards do.

Sharing info and experience is cool and all, but there is a method the masses enjoy, and methods that people straight up hate. Knowledge about certain topics, does not make the man.

Sorry to spaz, but c'mon.
peace

[1project2many]

or how many different versions of software some stranger on the Webs does?
Was this directed at me? I'm not trying to come off as a braggart. Sorry if it seemed that way.

[Caleditor]

Brag brag brag, who cares?, humility will always win over the braggart. We all enjoy what we do, it doesnt matter to others. WHo cares how many clusters, or how many different versions of software some stranger on the Webs does? I dont sit here and go on about Medicine as it matters to PCM recalibration about as much as GM recognition awards do.

Sharing info and experience is cool and all, but there is a method the masses enjoy, and methods that people straight up hate. Knowledge about certain topics, does not make the man.

Sorry to spaz, but c'mon.
peace

Maybe you should go back and read the BS you posted that was off topic.

Next Lyndon is just a regular everyday tuner he is NOTHING SPECIAL. I have reworked many of his tunes. You look up to that so called guru for some stupid reason and I have been nice not to tell you how I feel about him and his useless tunes. Being in a circle of tuners I can tell you a lot of tuner shops laugh at his tunes and wonder WTF he is doing.
Wester’s TC program has nothing that the version that I use of TC does not have. Remember I have a copy of DDT.
In my opinion Lyndon tried to scam with the Duramax program JET and lost. End of story!!!

The cluster deal Pauly is a thread on the GM service forum with instructions on how to rebuild the GM clusters that are failing at a high rate. I have repairs procedures for all types of clusters. We are not just talking about stepper motor failures. Tom and I sell components to dealerships that allow techs to rebuild clusters all the way up to the current clusters being used.

We have 2415 bin/calibration files in our repository. Let say 400 are stock bins we acquired and never tuned. That brings us down to let say 2000. Say 2 files per tune on average. That would be 1000 we have tuned. Have you EVER had to fix one of our tunes? Have you ever heard someone talk down about our tunes?

[EagleMark]

Wow this thread sucks and has no useful information and no one can use, just a plug to how wonderful you are and how many products your ready to sell. Seems your the only one worthy and the rest are just sheep?

So I'll stop it now and suggest you do the same.