GM Distributor with Cam sensor

[EagleMark]

Anyone know of a GM distributor with a can sensor built in other then the one on a 4.9L Cadillac?

[dave w]

The Vortec engines 1996 up have cam position sensors.

dave w

[EagleMark]

They look pretty cool too! Wonder why guys are useing the Caddilac ones for conversions? They are bulky old school coil in cap...

[dave w]

The Vortec cam position sensor is 185 / 175 split. Maybe that's why? :confused:

For sure the Vortec software is ultra expensive ... so I'm thinking the $$$ for software are the reason not use Vortec stuff.

dave w

[Six_Shooter]

Doesn't the Caddy dizzy also have a reluctor for the ignition as well?

[1project2many]

Doesn't the Caddy dizzy also have a reluctor for the ignition as well?

Yes. The Vortec piece is not a distributor in the traditional sense. There is no crank sensor built in so there's no way to trigger spark. I don't trust it for reliability, either. I've seen plenty of oil leaks, cracked cap retaining ears, and rotor attaching pads that are loose on the shaft to decide the plastic part just isn't worth using. I have a pile of 'em here at the house that were removed from buses in our fleet.

Early V6 Buicks with SFI used a cam sensor in the distributor. Certain S10 trucks with 2.5L engines also had a hall effect sensor added to the distributor which could be used as a cam sensor.

[EagleMark]

I've only worked on one Vortec engine, friend asked if I could make it run right? He had a shop replace some gaskets and they dropped the distributor in one gear off, so I tryed to turn distributor only to find you cant! They are set one way. So I pulled it and moved it back a tooth and it ran fine!

Now that you say there is no crank sensor in it explains why...

I was looking for one that runs as a distributor but also had cam sensor like the Caddy.

[Six_Shooter]

I don't know how easy it would be in your application, but a few years ago I added an MSD cam sensor to a Zetec I4 by drilling into a spot on the cam, adding a magnet, and drilling through the head to add the sensor. Something similar could be don ein a cam in block engine, using the timing gear, or maybe even in a similar way that the GM genIII 60 degree V6 is, where the front of the block is drilled, and pointed straight down at the cam.

[1project2many]

Switch to N* DIS and use a traditional distributor as a cam sensor.

Use the 96+ Vortec / LT1 timing cover, balancer, crank sensor, and reluctor wheel then install the Vortec "distributor" / cam sensor.

Use the space above the reluctor in the distributor to add a single tooth for a Hall effect switch.

Do as Six_shooter recommended and install a cam sensor on the cam gear.

There were a few of us that spent many hours working out options for cam + crank sensor without major surgery. Caddy 4.5 / 4.9 was the only V8 based solution we came up with.

[EagleMark]

Well I got my six cylinder worked out for DIS by buying a distributor from a 2006 Jeep. It looks like a distibutor bottom but only has a cam sensor on top.

Not sure what I am going to do with the IH motor. I think I will just take a step back and run TBI with a 16197427 ECM to take advantage of a better ECM and build a HyBrid distributor for it.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25 (http://www.eagle-mark.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25)

[1project2many]

SEFI does not provide great gains. There are advantages when trying to make big power per liter displacement but for mild stuff not so much. But pfi OTOH does have advantages over TBI because it eliminates many mixture distribution issues. Seems like most of the necessary bits to run 7427 in pfi mode with a V8 have been worked out so maybe a set of injector bungs and a couple of fuel rails adapted from another engine would be good options?

What would be nice would be individual spark timing trim. After looking over the J&S stuff it seems like they're using old school tech with a little common sense to detect specific cylinders having trouble. That would be a great advantage over one size fits all knock retard.

Have you seen this thread? (http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/diy-prom/249330-diy-dyno-done-trying.html) It's inspiring.

The picture link in the thread isn't valid but here's one to study.

[EagleMark]

Oh shit! Don't give me any ideas...
:confused1:

[shaggytx]

Ok guys, Im with Eagle on that. And I don't think I like this site anymore!!!! :innocent2: Oh wait that was boss lady saying that!

[f85gtron]

Well I got my six cylinder worked out for DIS by buying a distributor from a 2006 Jeep. It looks like a distibutor bottom but only has a cam sensor on top.

Not sure what I am going to do with the IH motor. I think I will just take a step back and run TBI with a 16197427 ECM to take advantage of a better ECM and build a HyBrid distributor for it.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25 (http://www.eagle-mark.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25)

Old topic, but I'm extremely curious if all you needed was the jeep distributor to make dis possible, or do you still need a crank sensor too?
I'm asking because I have an old 60° v6 iron heads that I would like to run dis, but it has no factory provisions. (Currently Stock fiero gt motor running 7730 w/dizzy)

[1project2many]

What about building a 7 notch wheel for the front of the crank?

[Six_Shooter]

What about building a 7 notch wheel for the front of the crank?


This^^^

If you tried to use a dizzy to create the needed crank signal, you would actually need to create a 14x wheel, with two offset notches, in order to have proper timed signals, due to the cam rotating at half the RPM of the crank. As factory installed, the 660 DIS system uses a 7x wheel (6 equally spaced notches and 1 offset by 10 degrees for a home signal).

There have been various ways that people have made the crankt triggers on engines that do not have them. I've made an external trigger wheel that attaches to the front of the harmonic dampner for a couple of mine.

On my 1985 GMC Jimmy, that I built a turbo hybrid for. This used a 2.8L block, so it didn't have crank trigger sensor provisions, even though the crank I installed, a FWd 3.1L unit, had the notches.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=9445&d=1441129878

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=9446&d=1441129878


I used the same wheel with some modifications and new sensor mount when I installed the DIS system on my Nissan I6:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=9447&d=1441129878

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=9448&d=1441129878

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=9449&d=1441130413

I'm now using this same trigger wheel and modified teh original mount to fit on my current LX9 (3500).

[1project2many]

I'm asking because I have an old 60° v6 iron heads


Hmmm... are you talking about this?


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb253/ace122/ace122011/citation1_zps2a111ca4.jpg




Or this:


http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=372807&stc=1&d=1215229776

[f85gtron]

Top one, in a fiero. Came with ho big valve heads from factory. If opened up, runs very strong and had good torque. Of course, all measurements are made seat-of-pants.

[f85gtron]

This^^^

If you tried to use a dizzy to create the needed crank signal, you would actually need to create a 14x wheel, with two offset notches, in order to have proper timed signals, due to the cam rotating at half the RPM of the crank. As factory installed, the 660 DIS system uses a 7x wheel (6 equally spaced notches and 1 offset by 10 degrees for a home signal).
.
Yes. I'm thinking why not simply install a second reluctor on top the first one and "star" the reluctor wheel on the dizzy to accomplish the doubled up whacks?

[1project2many]

The HO engines in the X11 cars were kind of fun to drive. Too bad GM bailed out on 'em.

[f85gtron]

I think the citation had an x11 that never turned heads but blew away anything close to it in class? I might be remembering that wrong.

[1project2many]

The X11 cars were built for racing. They were a project of John Heinricy.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2013/07/08/lost-cars-of-the-1980s-chevrolet-citation-x-11/

I found an old geocities page out there with neat reading but it apparently comes with malware. :(

[Six_Shooter]

Yes. I'm thinking why not simply install a second reluctor on top the first one and "star" the reluctor wheel on the dizzy to accomplish the doubled up whacks?

That won't work...

You REALLY need to look at what makes the DIS system tick, to understand just how important it is to get the correct trigger wheel made and working.

[1project2many]

Yep... "double pulses" is not the way to go. The original 60 deg V6 DIS wheel looks like the one Six_Shooter posted previously.


It turns at crank speed where the distributor turns at 1/2 crank speed, so you'd have to make a wheel with 14 notches instead of 7 and they'd have to be mirror images of each other. Here's a good description under "Magnetic CKP." https://books.google.com/books?id=0S8KAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA413&lpg=PA413&dq=GM+Distributorless+ignition+7+notch&source=bl&ots=DhAnqifNaW&sig=yBZfAin8HmObtzWkdYZEQTpwj4A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDIQ6AEwA2oVChMIvK-n5YnYxwIVQlw-Ch33wwCy#v=onepage&q=GM%20Distributorless%20ignition%207%20notch&f=false

[f85gtron]

14 signals on the dizzy is what I was trying to accomplish. Seems easier than swapping cranks. But then again, 15 minutes to swap out a balancer sounds easy too. Dang! Thought i was on to something!
Sooo......what you're trying to say is... there's a reason it hasn't been done. ;)

[1project2many]

I think it may have been tried once back in the day. There were some old posts from a guy "tedscj" on diy-efi. IIRC he was trying to use a GM ecm on a Jag engine. I believe he made a distributor with a double notched wheel. Back then we didn't know enough to make it work properly but he gave a a dang good try.

I built a wheel and adapter for DIS on my Toyota engine. I put mine in front of the pulleys. I have to remove the sensor to change the belts but it's not a big deal.