Coil per cylinder 4.3?

[ericjon262]

ok, so we all know the 0411 PCM is capable of CPC, and some of us know the 4.3 S10 also uses the 0411. The 4.3 doesn't use CPC though, it uses some kind of distributor setup, much like that of the 5.0 and 5.7 vortec engines. has anyone converted a 4.3 to run on a 0411 with CPC?

wiring pinouts for the S10 and typical V8 0411(trans am IIRC).




blue

2002 S-10 4.3

Typical V8 0411



1

ground

ground



2

12v ref

12V reference



3

-

Fuel injector #3



4

Fuel injector #4

Fuel injector #2



5

-

-



6

-

-



7

-

-



8

5v ref

-



9

Knock sensor signal

-



10

-

-



11

-

KS #2 signal



12

Crank pos signal

Crank position signal



13

-

Requested torque signal



14

-

UART serial data secondary



15

-

UART serial data tertiary



16

-

-



17

Trans fluid pressure switch signal B

Trans fluid pressure switch signal B



18

Trans fluid pressure switch signal C

Trans fluid pressure switch signal C



19

IGN+

IGN+



20

B+

B+



21

Low ref

Low ref



22

-

-



23

Low ref

Low ref



24

-

-



25

HO2S low bank2 sensor 1

HO2S low bank2 sensor 1



26

HO2S low bank2 sensor 2

HO2S low bank2 sensor 2



27

-

-



28

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 2

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 2



29

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 1

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 1



30

Coolant level switch signal

Coolant level switch signal



31

-

-



32

Transmission range signal A

Transmission range signal A



33

TCC brake switch signal

TCC brake switch signal



34

Transmission range switch signal P

Transmission range switch signal P



35

CPP switch signal

CPP switch signal



36

Fuel injector #1

Fuel injector #1



37

Fuel injector #3

Fuel injector #6



38

-

Damping lift/dive signal



39

-

-



40

ground

ground



41

-

Low ref



42

-

-



43

Fuel injector #5

Fuel injector #7



44

-

Fuel injector #5



45

-

FTP 5V ref



46

5v ref

TPS 5V ref



47

-

MAP 5V ref



48

5v ref

EGR 5V ref



49

Low ref

-



50

-

-



51

-

KS bank 1 signal



52

-

-



53

Low ref (RPO M30 only)

Low reference



54

Low ref

Low reference



55

-

EGR valve position signal



56

-

-



57

B+

B+



58

Class II serial

Class II serial



59

Class II serial

Class II serial



60

Low ref

Low ref



61

Low ref

Low ref



62

-

-



63

HO2S low ref

Low ref



64

-

-



65

-

HO2S high signal bank 2 sensor 2



66

HO2S High signal

HO2S high signal bank 2 sensor 1



67

-

-



68

HO2S high signal

HO2S high signal bank 1 sensor 2



69

HO2S high signal

HO2S high signal bank 1 sensor 1



70

-

Oil level switch



71

-

-



72

Trans range switch signal B

Trans range switch signal B



73

Cam position signal

Cam position signal



74

ECT signal

ECT signal



75

B+(RPO M30 only)

B+



76

Fuel injector #3

Fuel injector #5



77

Fuel injector #6

Fuel injector #8



78

-

-



79

3-2 shift solenoid control

3-2 shift solenoid control



80

Low ref

Low ref









Red

2002 S-10 4.3

Typical V8 0411



1

Ground

Ground



2

TCC PWM solenoid control

TCC PWM solenoid control



3

-

Secondary fuel pump relay control



4

-

-



5

-

Delivered torque signal



6

PC solenoid high control (A)

PC solenoid high control (A)



7

-

EGR supply voltage



8

PC solenoid low control(A)

PC solenoid low control(A)



9

Primary fuel pump relay control

Primary fuel pump relay control



10

Engine speed signal

Engine speed signal



11

-

AC high pressure recirc switch signal



12

-

-



13

Cruise status

Cruise status



14

-

-



15

Generator turn on signal

Charge indicator control



16

4wd low signal

4wd low signal



17

AC request

AC request



18

-

-



19

Axle switch signal

Axle switch signal



20

VSS low

VSS low



21

VSS high

VSS high



22

-

ISS high



23

-

ISS low



24

TPS signal

-



25

IAT signal

IAT signal



26

IC timing signal

Coil 1 control



27

-

Coil 7 control



28

--

Coil 6 control



29

-

Coil 4 control



30

-

-



31

MAF signal

MAF signal



32

MAP signal

MAP signal



33

-

Recirc actuator control



34

EVAP purge control

EVAP purge control



35

-

-



36

-

AIR pump relay



37

-

-



38

-

-



39

12V ref

12V ref



40

ground

ground



41

-

EGR solenoid control



42

TCC solenoid control

TCC solenoid control



43

AC relay control

AC relay control



44

-

-



45

EVAP vent control

EVAP vent control



46

SES light

SES light



47

2-3 shift solenoid

2-3 shift solenoid



48

1-2 shift solenoid

1-2 shift solenoid



49

Vehicle speed signal

Vehicle speed signal



50

VSS signal

VSS signal



51

Trans fluid temp signal

Trans fluid temp signal



52

Generator field duty cycle signal

Generator field duty cycle signal



53

-

-



54

Low ref

Fuel level signal(primary)



55

AC low pressure switch signal

AC low pressure switch signal



56

-

-



57

Low ref

Low ref



58

-

-



59

-

-



60

-

Low ref



61

-

Low ref



62

Trans range switch signal C

Trans range switch signal C



63

Trans pressure switch signal A

Trans pressure switch signal A



64

STP pressure signal

STP pressure signal



65

-

-



66

-

Coil 8 control



67

-

Coil 2 control



68

-

Coil 5 control



69

-

Coil 3 control



70

-

-



71

-

-



72

HO2S heater low control bank 2 sensor 1

HO2S heater low control bank 2 sensor 1



73

-

Fuel level signal (secondary)



74

HO2S heater high control bank 2 sensor 1

HO2S heater high control bank 2 sensor 1



75

-

-



76

IAC coil B high control

IAC coil B high control



77

IAC coil B low control

IAC coil B low control



78

IAC coil A low control

IAC coil A low control



79

IAC coil A high control

IAC coil A high control



80

HO2S heater low ref

Low ref

[JeepsAndGuns]

I remember asking about this one time in the past. I was thinking about using a 411 to run a jeep 4.0 engine, and was wondering if DIS (coil per plug) was possiable. If I remember correctly, since it had never been done from the factory, it probably wasnt doable. Something about no crank trigger wheels and code to support it.
I think if a person was smart enough and knew the code in the pcm well enough, I think it could be hacked and done. Maybe convert a V8 bin to run the 6cyl? Not sure if the V8 trigger wheel could be used or if a custom one would have to be designed and code written to use it.

My guess is since there is such a low demand for doing this, no one has felt the need to do it. But I'm thinking if a TBI PCM can be hacked to run MPFI and use a MAF, then why couldnt the 411 be converted to run a 6cyl DIS?

[ericjon262]

I was kinda figuring I would get a response like that. I would love to start learning the actual code and how to manipulate it. I will eventually, but I think I'm going to be a bit too wrapped up in school for the next year or two.

[34blazer]

I was kinda figuring I would get a response like that. I would love to start learning the actual code and how to manipulate it. I will eventually, but I think I'm going to be a bit too wrapped up in school for the next year or two.

TRUTH. Youre never out of upgrade long enough before you start another. Want a good EPR, there goes all your free time! LOL

[ericjon262]

meh, I'll make it happen. might use the 0411, might go another route, like the shortstar PCM. we'll see.

[Hog]

The newer 4.3 used in the GMT900 trucks used 3 coils mounted in teh position where teh distributer sits. I'm sure you could wire it up to use either CNP (Coil Near Plug) like on tyhe LS1/2/3/4/7/9/A or COP(Coil On Plug) like is used on the Ecotec 4 cyls etc.
Here is the 2007+ LU3 4.3 with the 3 coils and long high tension wires
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/2010lu3.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/2010lu3.jpg.html)

Here is the 2007 and earlier 4.3 with crab style distributer used in the GMT 400 and GMT 800 trucks. Uses a single coil.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/200743-1.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/200743-1.jpg.html)

Here is the brand new Direct Injection Ecotec 4.3 used in teh new 2014+trucks, as you cans ee it uses CNP ignition with the short high tension wires
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/43.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/43.jpg.html)

peace
Hog

[ericjon262]

I should have been more specific and said using the 0411 PCM.

[JeepsAndGuns]

With those being DIS, there is definately a crank trigger wheel made for them. The only problem I see would be getting the 411 to work with that trigger wheel.
I'm thinking 4.3 bin from the 01-02 range (for a 411 pcm) would probably be way different than a bin for the same year V8 with DIS. So I am wondering if it would be easyer to mod a V8 bin, and alter the number of cylinders it fires and the number of pulses it see from the crank trigger, than it would be to try and make a distributor bin work with dis?
However it goes, it would take someone way smarter than me to do it.

[EagleMark]

Hog always has the sexy pictures! :thumbsup:

Somewhere we talked about this before to run COP with the 5.7L Vortec engine (96,97,98,99,00) 0411 conversion.

In EFI Live and TunerCat there are Vehicle Platform Options and the LS engine like Camaro and newer Trucks have Low Res Crank marked No. The Vortec calibration that comes with distributor is marked Yes!

Just not sure what the Low Res Option is for?

[EagleMark]

I guess the answer is in the new book?


the different ignition systems (with high and low resolution crank/cam signals)

http://www.eficonnection.com/eficonnection/ItemDetails.aspx?ItemId=1240

[ericjon262]

I just ordered the book, probably a good read even if it doesn't outline what I need to know.

[ericjon262]

thoughts?

I looked at which injector pins went to what cylinders between the two pinouts, and then match the coils.





blue

2002 S-10 4.3

Typical V8 0411

Coil per cylinder 4.3?



1

ground

ground

ground



2

12v ref

12V reference

12v ref



3

-

Fuel injector #3

-



4

Fuel injector #4

Fuel injector #2

Fuel injector #4



5

-

-

-



6

-

-

-



7

-

-

-



8

5v ref

-

5v ref



9

Knock sensor signal

-

Knock sensor signal



10

-

-

-



11

-

KS #2 signal

-



12

Crank pos signal

Crank position signal

Crank pos signal



13

-

Requested torque signal

-



14

-

UART serial data secondary

-



15

-

UART serial data tertiary

-



16

-

-

-



17

Trans fluid pressure switch signal B

Trans fluid pressure switch signal B

Trans fluid pressure switch signal B



18

Trans fluid pressure switch signal C

Trans fluid pressure switch signal C

Trans fluid pressure switch signal C



19

IGN+

IGN+

IGN+



20

B+

B+

B+



21

Low ref

Low ref

Low ref



22

-

-

-



23

Low ref

Low ref

Low ref



24

-

-

-



25

HO2S low bank2 sensor 1

HO2S low bank2 sensor 1

HO2S low bank2 sensor 1



26

HO2S low bank2 sensor 2

HO2S low bank2 sensor 2

HO2S low bank2 sensor 2



27

-

-

-



28

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 2

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 2

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 2



29

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 1

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 1

HO2S low signal bank 1 sensor 1



30

Coolant level switch signal

Coolant level switch signal

Coolant level switch signal



31

-

-

-



32

Transmission range signal A

Transmission range signal A

Transmission range signal A



33

TCC brake switch signal

TCC brake switch signal

TCC brake switch signal



34

Transmission range switch signal P

Transmission range switch signal P

Transmission range switch signal P



35

CPP switch signal

CPP switch signal

CPP switch signal



36

Fuel injector #1

Fuel injector #1

Fuel injector #1



37

Fuel injector #3

Fuel injector #6

Fuel injector #3



38

-

Damping lift/dive signal

-



39

-

-

-



40

ground

ground

ground



41

-

Low ref

-



42

-

-

-



43

Fuel injector #5

Fuel injector #7

Fuel injector #5



44

-

Fuel injector #5

-



45

-

FTP 5V ref

-



46

5v ref

TPS 5V ref

5v ref



47

-

MAP 5V ref

-



48

5v ref

EGR 5V ref

5v ref



49

Low ref

-

Low ref



50

-

-

-



51

-

KS bank 1 signal

-



52

-

-

-



53

Low ref (RPO M30 only)

Low reference

Low ref (RPO M30 only)



54

Low ref

Low reference

Low ref



55

-

EGR valve position signal

-



56

-

-

-



57

B+

B+

B+



58

Class II serial

Class II serial

Class II serial



59

Class II serial

Class II serial

Class II serial



60

Low ref

Low ref

Low ref



61

Low ref

Low ref

Low ref



62

-

-

-



63

HO2S low ref

Low ref

HO2S low ref



64

-

-

-



65

-

HO2S high signal bank 2 sensor 2

-



66

HO2S High signal

HO2S high signal bank 2 sensor 1

HO2S High signal



67

-

-

-



68

HO2S high signal

HO2S high signal bank 1 sensor 2

HO2S high signal



69

HO2S high signal

HO2S high signal bank 1 sensor 1

HO2S high signal



70

-

Oil level switch

-



71

-

-

-



72

Trans range switch signal B

Trans range switch signal B

Trans range switch signal B



73

Cam position signal

Cam position signal

Cam position signal



74

ECT signal

ECT signal

ECT signal



75

B+(RPO M30 only)

B+

B+(RPO M30 only)



76

Fuel injector #3

Fuel injector #5

Fuel injector #3



77

Fuel injector #6

Fuel injector #8

Fuel injector #6



78

-

-

-



79

3-2 shift solenoid control

3-2 shift solenoid control

3-2 shift solenoid control



80

Low ref

Low ref

Low ref









Red

2002 S-10 4.3

Typical V8 0411

2002 S-10 4.3



1

Ground

Ground

Ground



2

TCC PWM solenoid control

TCC PWM solenoid control

TCC PWM solenoid control



3

-

Secondary fuel pump relay control

-



4

-

-

-



5

-

Delivered torque signal

-



6

PC solenoid high control (A)

PC solenoid high control (A)

PC solenoid high control (A)



7

-

EGR supply voltage

-



8

PC solenoid low control(A)

PC solenoid low control(A)

PC solenoid low control(A)



9

Primary fuel pump relay control

Primary fuel pump relay control

Primary fuel pump relay control



10

Engine speed signal

Engine speed signal

Engine speed signal



11

-

AC high pressure recirc switch signal

-



12

-

-

-



13

Cruise status

Cruise status

Cruise status



14

-

-

-



15

Generator turn on signal

Charge indicator control

Generator turn on signal



16

4wd low signal

4wd low signal

4wd low signal



17

AC request

AC request

AC request



18

-

-

-



19

Axle switch signal

Axle switch signal

Axle switch signal



20

VSS low

VSS low

VSS low



21

VSS high

VSS high

VSS high



22

-

ISS high

-



23

-

ISS low

-



24

TPS signal

-

TPS signal



25

IAT signal

IAT signal

IAT signal



26

IC timing signal

Coil 1 control

Coil 1 control



27

-

Coil 7 control

Coil 5 control



28

--

Coil 6 control

Coil 3 control



29

-

Coil 4 control

Coil 2 control



30

-

-

-



31

MAF signal

MAF signal

MAF signal



32

MAP signal

MAP signal

MAP signal



33

-

Recirc actuator control

-



34

EVAP purge control

EVAP purge control

EVAP purge control



35

-

-

-



36

-

AIR pump relay

-



37

-

-

-



38

-

-

-



39

12V ref

12V ref

12V ref



40

ground

ground

ground



41

-

EGR solenoid control

-



42

TCC solenoid control

TCC solenoid control

TCC solenoid control



43

AC relay control

AC relay control

AC relay control



44

-

-

-



45

EVAP vent control

EVAP vent control

EVAP vent control



46

SES light

SES light

SES light



47

2-3 shift solenoid

2-3 shift solenoid

2-3 shift solenoid



48

1-2 shift solenoid

1-2 shift solenoid

1-2 shift solenoid



49

Vehicle speed signal

Vehicle speed signal

Vehicle speed signal



50

VSS signal

VSS signal

VSS signal



51

Trans fluid temp signal

Trans fluid temp signal

Trans fluid temp signal



52

Generator field duty cycle signal

Generator field duty cycle signal

Generator field duty cycle signal



53

-

-

-



54

Low ref

Fuel level signal(primary)

Low ref



55

AC low pressure switch signal

AC low pressure switch signal

AC low pressure switch signal



56

-

-

-



57

Low ref

Low ref

Low ref



58

-

-

-



59

-

-

-



60

-

Low ref

-



61

-

Low ref

-



62

Trans range switch signal C

Trans range switch signal C

Trans range switch signal C



63

Trans pressure switch signal A

Trans pressure switch signal A

Trans pressure switch signal A



64

STP pressure signal

STP pressure signal

STP pressure signal



65

-

-

-



66

-

Coil 8 control

Coil 6 control



67

-

Coil 2 control

-



68

-

Coil 5 control

Coil 3 control



69

-

Coil 3 control

-



70

-

-

-



71

-

-

-



72

HO2S heater low control bank 2 sensor 1

HO2S heater low control bank 2 sensor 1

HO2S heater low control bank 2 sensor 1



73

-

Fuel level signal (secondary)

-



74

HO2S heater high control bank 2 sensor 1

HO2S heater high control bank 2 sensor 1

HO2S heater high control bank 2 sensor 1



75

-

-

-



76

IAC coil B high control

IAC coil B high control

IAC coil B high control



77

IAC coil B low control

IAC coil B low control

IAC coil B low control



78

IAC coil A low control

IAC coil A low control

IAC coil A low control



79

IAC coil A high control

IAC coil A high control

IAC coil A high control



80

HO2S heater low ref

Low ref

HO2S heater low ref

[EagleMark]

Sure looks like a good start! My concern would be the code, not sure the vehicle platform change is going to work? This is new ground. Would be nice to have a test bench for this but then again you'll have a test bench when installed in the truck...

[ericjon262]

Sure looks like a good start! My concern would be the code, not sure the vehicle platform change is going to work? This is new ground. Would be nice to have a test bench for this but then again you'll have a test bench when installed in the truck...

I need a text bench bad... once I have a shop again, it'll be on my to do list. among many other things.

FWIW, this won't necessarily be a truck, like all the other mix match parts I own, this would be going into the Fiero.

[Fast355]

The newer 4.3 used in the GMT900 trucks used 3 coils mounted in teh position where teh distributer sits. I'm sure you could wire it up to use either CNP (Coil Near Plug) like on tyhe LS1/2/3/4/7/9/A or COP(Coil On Plug) like is used on the Ecotec 4 cyls etc.
Here is the 2007+ LU3 4.3 with the 3 coils and long high tension wires
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/2010lu3.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/2010lu3.jpg.html)

peace
Hog

This engine also has drive by wire and a returnless fuel system, just FYI.

[ericjon262]

interestingly enough, most GM obd2 PCMs can support DBW throttle bodies. the 0411 does it with the corvettes, and the PCM's used on most of the V6 cars do it on the later V6 4th gen F-bodies. I also don't see why the V6 PCM couldn't support a returnless fuel rail too with the right tuning. I think many of the 3800's use a returnless rail. I'm pretty sure the 0411 does out of the box.

[Skinny Pedal]

A 3x crank wheel does not have the resolution to control individual coils. Look at the 5.7 which is a 4x. You don't get individual control until you hit 24x. Thats 6 times the resolution. Yeah you could say that each 3x signal will be good for one cylinder each rev but you only have that one pulse then the timing would have to be figured with rpm in mind through a timing formula. With more resolution you are getting those extra pulses in between to help trigger timing events without a complex calculation that would take more time to calculate than the event window is long.

Thats my take on it anyway

[ericjon262]

A 3x crank wheel does not have the resolution to control individual coils. Look at the 5.7 which is a 4x. You don't get individual control until you hit 24x. Thats 6 times the resolution. Yeah you could say that each 3x signal will be good for one cylinder each rev but you only have that one pulse then the timing would have to be figured with rpm in mind through a timing formula. With more resolution you are getting those extra pulses in between to help trigger timing events without a complex calculation that would take more time to calculate than the event window is long.

Thats my take on it anyway

what's to say you don't swap the trigger wheel? I guess I should have said coil per cylinder V6/0411 too, because that's what I'd be more interested in.

[RobertISaar]

i don't see why it can't be done with a 3X signal. less interrupts gives the processor more time to do other work rather than service an interrupt.

in fact, the less pulses there are, the more accurate you can get. compare 3 notches on a wheel vs 6, the timer will get reset twice as often with the 6 pulse. at 6000RPM, with 6 pulses per rev, that is a frequency of 600Hz. assuming the timer ran at 65,536Hz(that way it will fill up a 16 bit counter once per second), then we're looking at a period of 1.66666mS and a timer value of 109.22(which will get rounded down to 109). with a 3 pulse, it's a rate of 300Hz at 6000RPM. period of 3.3333333mS and a timer value of 218.45(which will get rounded down to 218). that makes the error with a 6 pulse .2%. with the 3 pulse the same .2% error.

with 12: 6000RPM = 1200Hz, .833333333mS period, counter value of 54.6(which will likely get rounded down due to timing logic accumulating). so 54. an error of 1.14%
with 24: 6000RPM = 2400Hz, .416666666mS period, counter value of 27.3(round down to 27), error of 1.14%
with 48: 6000RPM = 4800Hz, .208333333mS period, counter value of 13.65(round down to 13), error of 5.03%

GM started adding more notches into the reluctors for the same reason that the single injector TBI 1.0 geo metro gained a cam sensor in 1996: misfire detection. it's a lot easier to track crankshaft acceleration and deceleration when you have multiple reference points to measure during a revolution.

[S10LS]

2007 up lu3 is 58x. Didnt see that posted yet.

[ericjon262]

2007 up lu3 is 58x. Didnt see that posted yet.


I think most everything GM is 58x now, I'm pretty sure that happened around 2007. I'm mainly looking at 24x, specifically the 0411 because it is so well supported, and because I don't care for DBW throttle. Something someone with a test bench may be able to try is just changing the cylinder count on an LS1 file and seeing if it still fires.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Well the V8's use a 24x wheel, that 8x3. So could you do the same with a 6 cyl? 6x3=18. Could a 18x trigger wheel be made, and possiably a V8 file be modded to use it? It seems to me this would give the same resolution for a V6 as it has for a V8.

Or, if all the newer engines use the same 58x wheel, weather they are 6 or 8 cylinder, then could the 411 code simply be re written to use the same 24x wheel it uses on the V8's, but just run 6 injectors and coils instead of 8?

[RobertISaar]

GM made a V6 application with an 18X signal... roughly 87 and up 3800s. they have both a 3X and 18X output. PCM only uses the 18X signal up to about 1200RPM and then switches to using the 3X due to better accuracy above that threshold. both signals are created by the 18 equal sized notches in the reluctor, but the 3X signal is created internally from the 18X signal after being passed through a /6 operation.

there is also a 3X reluctor on the same pulley/ring, each has a different width of notch to indicate to the ICM which cylinder pair is coming up on TDC. the ICM NEEDS both of these signals to operate. if either is gone, no fuel or spark.

[ericjon262]

I'm starting to think the crank sensor wouldn't be as big a deal, I'd bet a 24x would run it, if not the real trick would be figuring out the pattern, because it doesn't appear to be simple. keep in mind, 24/6=4, so it's still an even number of notched per cylinder, whatever that's worth.

[ericjon262]

I'm starting to think the crank sensor wouldn't be as big a deal, I'd bet a 24x would run it, if not the real trick would be figuring out the pattern, because it doesn't appear to be simple. keep in mind, 24/6=4, so it's still an even number of notched per cylinder, whatever that's worth.


maybe it wouldn't be so hard though, there's always the short*, it had coil per cylinder, and a single dual pattern crank trigger much like the LSx engines, but I'm unsure of the trigger tooth count or spacing.

[ericjon262]

without knowing the accuracy of this diagram, the shortstar APPEARS to also use a 24x crank trigger.

http://www.tonkinonlineparts.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_assembly=834449&ukey_make=1091&ukey_model=15784&ukey_category=22670

[JeepsAndGuns]

Looking at that picture it looks to be part of the crank like the northstar. I guess you would just have to find a picture of the crank out of one of those engines. I tried google searching, but came up empty handed.

[mecanicman]

I have the original gm training literature from 99 on the shortstar, its a 24x crank reluctor and 1x cam reluctor. It uses a dual pickup crank sensor so if one side fails the engine keeps running. Cool project!

[ericjon262]

I have the original gm training literature from 99 on the shortstar, its a 24x crank reluctor and 1x cam reluctor. It uses a dual pickup crank sensor so if one side fails the engine keeps running. Cool project!

!! !

are there any detail specs on the trigger? is it the same as the LS1 trigger?if it is, that makes my converions plans much easier! do you have any detail pictures of the crank trigger, and the pickup angle?

Thanks-

Eric

[mecanicman]

Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/#ss1-761514)

The camshaft position (CMP) sensor is also a magneto resistive sensor, with the same type of circuits as the crankshaft position (CKP) sensor. The CMP sensor signal is a digital ON/OFF pulse, output once per revolution of the camshaft. The CMP sensor information is used by the PCM to determine the position of the valve train relative to the crankshaft position.
Camshaft Reluctor Wheel (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/#ss2-761514)

The camshaft reluctor wheel is part of the camshaft sprocket. The reluctor wheel profile is a smooth track, half of which is of a lower profile than the other half. This allows the CMP sensor to supply a signal as soon as the key is turned ON, since the CMP sensor reads the track profile, instead of a notch.
Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/#ss3-761514)

The crankshaft position (CKP) sensor is a three wire sensor based on the magneto resistive principle. A magneto resistive sensor uses two magnetic pickups between a permanent magnet. As an element such as a reluctor wheel passes the magnets the resulting change in the magnetic field is used by the sensor electronics to produce a digital output pulse. This system uses two sensors within the same housing for the V6 engine, and two separate sensors for the V8 engine. The PCM supplies each sensor a 12-volt reference, low reference, and a signal circuit. The signal circuit returns a digital ON/OFF pulse 24 times per crankshaft revolution.
Crankshaft Reluctor Wheel (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/#ss4-761514)

The crankshaft reluctor wheel is part of the crankshaft. The notches on the reluctor wheel provide a unique pattern for each pair of cylinders that are at top dead center (TDC) at the same time. This is known as pulse width encoding. This pulse width encoded pattern allows the PCM to quickly recognize which pair of cylinders are at TDC.

[ericjon262]

is your manual a digital copy?

[mecanicman]

No, I copied and pasted that out of si2000. No more info or pics in the book on the topic. Pm me your email, ill forward you a couple technical drawings, dont get your hopes up.

[EagleMark]

You can post just about any attachment here. If not zip it. Under quick reply you see Go Advanced, when there under the text box is Attachment manager.

[mecanicman]

You can post just about any attachment here. If not zip it. Under quick reply you see Go Advanced, when there under the text box is Attachment manager.
I never figured out if it was a joke or not, but I received a very legal type email from another forum I post on. I was posting a lot of gm stuff I have access to, so I don't do it any more.

[EagleMark]

Some large internet forum groups do have attorneys on staff to advise. So they play the safe side. If GM cared half the internet would be shut down. Tuning itself is GM computer systems hacked... So it's OK, but it's your choice.

In about 14 years of doing auto forums I've never been contacted for anything posted.

[mecanicman]

Found this on another forum

[ericjon262]

that's not a shortstar crank, the short* has a split pin crank.

[mecanicman]

I think it's a 4.0, but it's a good shot of reluctor which is supposed to be the same between3.5 and 4.0

[Lextech]

Mechanicman---I just matched up the tooth assignment of the pic you posted with a 7.4 Coil Near Plug 24x reluctor and they are NOT the same. I don't know if that helps in any way but I thought I would post up.

Jeff

[ericjon262]

Mechanicman---I just matched up the tooth assignment of the pic you posted with a 7.4 Coil Near Plug 24x reluctor and they are NOT the same. I don't know if that helps in any way but I thought I would post up.

Jeff


thank you, that is helpful, anyone have a link that shows how to make a test bench?

[ericjon262]

found an interesting bit of info, both LX5 and LSx ignitions wire up in a similar manner, but the LX5 uses one large ICM, and the LSx engines use ICM's integrated into the coil. for someone wanting to do a coil per cylinder swap while retaining a cable throttle, the best option may be a trigger swap and LX5 programming with the LX5 PCM. as an added bonus, the LX5 PCM uses the same case as a 0411, so it would "bolt in" just need connector ends swapped, and pins moved.



LSx


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr98/ericjon262/Ignition_System_Bank_1.gif


http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr98/ericjon262/Ignition_System_Bank_2.gif


LX5
http://i473.photobucket.com/albums/rr98/ericjon262/shortstarign.png

[JeepsAndGuns]

Been a hair over a year since the last post and I was wondering if anyone has made any leeway on this idea?
I find it a tiny bit surprising that as popular as 6 cyl engines are today, and as popular as the 411 still is, that no one has figured out how to make a 411 run a 6cyl with coil per cylinder.
Could the V8 24x trigger wheel be used and then some code changed to make it fire 6 cylinders instead of 8? I know on a lot of the OBD1 stuff we fool around with on here, a V8 bin can be changed to run a V6 without much problems by just changing the cylinder numer in the bin. But its all mainly based off DRP's and are not sequiential, so I figure it wouldnt be as easy as changing cylinder count.

[ericjon262]

Been a hair over a year since the last post and I was wondering if anyone has made any leeway on this idea?
I find it a tiny bit surprising that as popular as 6 cyl engines are today, and as popular as the 411 still is, that no one has figured out how to make a 411 run a 6cyl with coil per cylinder.
Could the V8 24x trigger wheel be used and then some code changed to make it fire 6 cylinders instead of 8? I know on a lot of the OBD1 stuff we fool around with on here, a V8 bin can be changed to run a V6 without much problems by just changing the cylinder numer in the bin. But its all mainly based off DRP's and are not sequiential, so I figure it wouldnt be as easy as changing cylinder count.


I'll be honest, I gave up on it using the 0411. if I want to do coil per cylinder, I think I can make it work with the LX5 PCM/programming, and possibly my stock sensor arrangements.

[JeepsAndGuns]

I have been google searching it a while and have not come up with much. About the best I have come up with was I found a thread on some site where a guy was trying to do this with a 411 on some import car. It was suggested to use a E67, harness, coils, 58x wheel, etc... from like a 06 and up trailblazer with a vortec 4200. Sounds interesting, but that puts it out of reach for most with low budgets, as it would require the expensive tuning software/hardware. Thats what makes the 411 more appealing, is has just become a little more affordable with the release of the flash tool.

[ericjon262]

I'm using a $250 used DHP unit to tune my V6, what are you trying to run, a 4.0?

[RobertISaar]

DHPs have been tough to find for a while now... I would be playing with OBD2 V6 stuff now if I could get ahold of one when I don't immediately go broke seconds before one gets posted for sale with a reasonable price. being able to use just the somewhat more attainable AVT cables(and not having to screw around with a serial-USB adapter) is helpful, but I have yet to see anyone post definitive proof of being able to just plug in and go.

[JeepsAndGuns]

what are you trying to run, a 4.0?

Yes. Basicly my dream fuel injection setup would be coil per cylinder sequential injection for my 4.0. I plan on building it and stroking it in the future (possiably even turbo), and being able to tune it and ditch the distributor would be awesome.
My current plan was to swap in a 7727 since the stock 93 jeep ecm is not tuneable. Only thing is, I lose sequential injection, since the 7727 is batch fire. But I can use a ICM/coil pack from a fwd gm car and get waste spark DIS ignition (just have to make/mount a correct crank trigger wheel)
Now that the 411 flash tool is out, it opens up the 411. I could base the system off a 4.3 tune/pinout and it would basicly be back like my stock jeep system (sequential injection with a distributor) but now be tuneable. Just make/mount the required crank trigger wheel. However, knowing the 411 can run coil per cylinder on the V8's, but not the V6's is very disappointing, especially knowing how popular 6 cylinders are today. I will still however most likely drop the plan of using the 7727 in favor of the 411 simply because of being able to keep it sequential and the possiablity of being able to re use many jeep sensors (tps, iac, map, and possiably cam position sensor) and being a newer faster and well supported ecm.


And what is a DHP?

[RobertISaar]

sequential injection is overrated IMO.... I've run an engine with both its original PCM(that was SFI) and a 16149396(7727 with extra RAM) and noticed no difference in how well either operated.

if I had to choose between single coil/dizzy + SFI + a non-tunable PCM or batch + waste-spark + super-well hacked PCM, I'm going that second route every time.

the 0411.... I'm sure it can be used with 1 coil/cylinder ignitions, but I'm certainly not the one to be able to figure it out.

[ericjon262]

DHP= Digital horsepower tuner.

does the 4.0 use a cam sensor? any GM obd2 setup capable of coil per cylinder will use a cam signal.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Yes. All 91 and newer 4.0's have sequential injection with both a cam and crank sensors. The cam sensor is a hall effect 1x signal mounted inside the distributor just like the obd2 4.3's chevys. The crank sensor is also hall effect and reads off notches in the flywheel. The number of notaches (3 sets of 4 notches) are not compatable with any gm system I know of, but mounting a new wheel and sensor on the front puley looks pretty easy.

[ericjon262]

playing the really long game here... turns out the engine I am going to be using has the same crank trigger wheel as an LS1, the cam wheel is different though, the cam wheel on my engine is a 1x missing tooth, the cam wheel on an LS1 is a 1x 180 degree reluctor.

IOW, it may be possible to run a GM LX9 with an 0411, which is way more hacked than anything GM V6.

I'll follow this up with anything else I can find.

[dave w]

The 2013 Chevy Silverado 1500 with 4.3 is a coil pack / coil per plug ignition system. Uses AC Delco part number D599A coil pack.

The LS1 1x cam reluctor is 175 degrees.:thumbsup:

dave w

[ericjon262]

The 2013 Chevy Silverado 1500 with 4.3 is a coil pack / coil per plug ignition system. Uses AC Delco part number D599A coil pack.

The LS1 1x cam reluctor is 175 degrees.:thumbsup:

dave w

yep, but also starts getting into DBW and DI, and uses a 60-2 trigger instead of a 24x wheel like I need.

Thanks for the correction on the cam wheel, I was just guessing based on the look of it.

[1project2many]

Blast from the past.

Why not go to DIS on the 4.3? Why coil near plug?

[ericjon262]

yeah, sure is, but the new info is still relevant to the original discussion. I was more looking to develop a way to run coil near plug on a 60V6, and thought a mix of V6 and V6 0411 configurations might work. now I see I may be able to just run a Lx9 with an 0411 without nearly as much work as I thought, although now, I'm running a MS3x, so it's kinda an irrelevant for me.

why no DIS?

I didn't like the ICM's and long plug wires for some reason when I built (rebuilt) the car, so I went with coil near plug.