Chips in a OBDII PCM? [Archive] - GearHead EFI Forums

RobertISaar

01-12-2013, 01:04 AM

the roadrunner is BASICALLY a LS1 PCM with a permanantly installed emulator.... and since a lot of the GM OBD2 PCMs(ones based on the 68332 processor anyways) are nearly identical, it's not really surprising if it could be moved to other PCMs easily or even using non-native BINs in the LS1 PCM.

FWIW: an 8-bit, 512KB flash PROM(like what would be found in a LS1 PCM) would require 20 address lines, 8 data lines and a couple of other pins for +5V, ground, chip select, output enable, read/write.... in the end, a little more than 30 pins required. if you can solder PLCC stuff, it's no problem at all.

RobertISaar

01-12-2013, 01:29 AM

actually, new info, and i should have known, but it's actually a 16 bit PROM... so 16 + 20 + etc = TSOP44 package. the space between the centerlines of the legs on the PROM is .8mm.... i'd like to think i'm damn good with a soldering iron, but that's tiny... doing that without a hot-air solution or otherwise fully computer controlled would be quite difficult.

dave w

01-12-2013, 02:41 AM

There are companies like; QPL http://www.qplpcba.com/default.cfm that have PCB rework capability for IC's like an '0411 flash chip. Several years ago when I was doing the PCB failure analysis for Planar Systems in Hillsboro Or, QPL assembled and re-worked Printed Circuit Boards for Planar Systems. If there was enough interest, I would think QPL would be willing to install flash chip zif sockets to a small volume of automotive Printed Circuit Boards. The challenge I see with an '0411 PCM is having enough clearance in the computer case for the zif socket?

I'll also comment, the Moates.net Burn2 is not capable of reflashing the flash chip used in an '0411 PCM. A chip programmer similar to the ones offered by BX http://www.batronix.com/shop/programmer/programmers.html would be required along with the required chip adapter http://www.batronix.com/shop/adapter/index.html

I'm still thinking if / when restrictions for OBDII tuning happen, there will be ways to still continue on with OBDII tuning.

dave w

RobertISaar

01-12-2013, 02:50 AM

for that kind of money, the newer Willem units (4 series) will program nearly anything and for significantly less $$$... i believe the Intel 28Fx00 units from the 0411 included.

i'm sure there is plenty of room inside to just mount a ZIF socket on the surface of the board... based on what i've seen of the internals anyways. if the roadrunner will fit in the case, then a ZIF socket should be no problem. building a little access door so you don't have to open it completely would be a nice addition as well.

i can see the EPA cracking down on the diesel DPF stuff since it's all relatively new, but general gasoline tuning? wouldn't count on it.... if they had put their foot down when the subject was new, it would be effective, but not now... it's too widespread for them to have any hope of stopping it. CARB is ridiculous and they still aren't able to detect/deal with a lot of it.

EagleMark

01-13-2013, 09:16 AM

Looks like the Roadrunner has a header and ribbon cable and board, I know Moates sells the header and would probably sell the ribbon cable? So would that put the chip outside?

3487

Doesn't sound like a lot of wires needed, diagrams are all there...What kind of bin file to run it on another rig? Like OBDI...

EagleMark

01-13-2013, 09:24 AM

Looks like loads of room if Moates can stuff a seperate board in there...

The guts of the LS1 controller look fairly typical for a modern electronic part. The flash memory chip is labeled "A" and the processor is labeled "B" in the shown photo.
3488

RobertISaar

01-13-2013, 09:55 AM

huh..... i actually expected more ICs.... then again, the 68332 on it's own can do a lot more than the 6811 on it's own. there are a LOT of drivers.

JeepsAndGuns

01-13-2013, 06:14 PM

So what would be the benefit of doing this? I know nothing about OBD2.
I'm guessing this simply removes the need for flashing through the obd port? What has caused the desire to do this?

EagleMark

01-13-2013, 06:35 PM

You got it, get around cost or avalaibility of re-flash through OBDII port.

1project2many

01-13-2013, 08:12 PM

The Moates Roadrunner DIY kit is expensive but not out of control.

Black box Vortec instructions to modify for flashing without using OBDII were on gmecm years ago. Steve Ravet did some initial work with this.
http://www.diy-efi.org/gmecm/ecm_info/32bit/dumpflash/

I've been trying to tell people for years that OBDII is a step backward for tuning if you're only using the OBDII connection for programming. You lose all ability for real time emulating and changing the cal takes more time than burning and changing an eprom. The BDM flash is likely to be faster but Steve's instructions, like many from tech guys, make a lot of assumptions about knowledge and skill level of the user.

The ability to pull the chips out and make changes, however, means you will always have a way to modify your calibrations even if software to change through OBDII port is stopped. It's definitely worthwhile to work out a solution. Here's the first part of a hardware solution, a header which allows you to move the flash chip off the board:
http://www.moates.net/roadrunner-diy-solder-on-extra-emulation-header.html

Then you might be able to use a ribbon cable to move the connection point away from the board. Looks like at least one person on thirdgen is doing something similar. Luckily a 44 pin ribbon cable is fairly standard in the PC world so short pre-made cables are easy to locate:
http://www.cablesonline.com/44pinlapinri.html

Some good reading:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?9179-Im-making-a-tutorial-for-the-Roadrunner-guts-kit-install-today
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?10109-Guts-Kit-installation
From here, there is a nice link to a page with pictures (because we all love pictures)
http://www.florida4x4.com/tech/rr-guts/

Of course, we're not looking to install the Roadrunner, only to install something such as a ZIF socket or ribbon cable. One approach might be to modify a GM memcal and install a ZIF or the proper flash chip on one end while leaving the other end unpopulated. Pin spacing would determine how difficult this is.

There are several tools available which appear to allow programming the PSOP44 44 pin flash device using a standard eprom programmer. They appear to be from China but maybe the cost is worth it:
http://www.dhgate.com/chip-programmer-socket-psop44-adapter-/p-ff80808131ae1b280131cb5112a84964.html
http://www.oobdii.com/other-obd2-vehicle-tools/chip-programmer-socket-psop44
Here's one for a Willems programmer:
http://tekdevice.com/chapter2/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=55
Here's one that you complete:http://www.sivava.com/B09_Adapter.html

Of course, once you get this done it all begs the question of why can't you use your existing emulator? I'm sure some digging around might find those answers or enough clues to figure it out. Problems with timing, communications speed, and device storage capacity are all possibilities that come to mind. But one step at a time, of course.

HTH

Lextech

01-13-2013, 10:52 PM

I have the Moates LS1b RoadRunner PCM but, haven't used it yet. I have been told that you can flash it with a 512kb (99-02) or a 1mb (03-07) calibration. My truck is put away for the winter but, I hope to play around with the RR this summer.

Jeff

EagleMark

01-14-2013, 12:35 AM

I've got a RR sitting here as well waiting to install in my vortec truck thanks to your work on the conversion! :thumbsup:

But I've actually broke some new ground with the 98-00 vortec PCM on EFI Live forum and have the Calc VE Calc MAF and almost the AutuTune tutorials working for the Vortec. One piece of info has been missing the whole time to make it work, it's the commanded AFR! It's named wrong in the Scan Tool so no one has been able to make it work. Right now we have a request in for MORE PAREMTERS, which are there, just not installed by EFI Live. Right now I'm using a cross of EFI Live, TunerCat and Hex from the Disasembly and it all works!

Once it's done the Road Runner is going in!

EagleMark

01-14-2013, 12:41 AM

Thanks for the in depth info 1project2many. This puts it all into perspective! :thumbsup:

The idea of doing that and using the AutoProm or other emulator is intriging...

RobertISaar

01-14-2013, 12:44 AM

not that i've opened one to find out, but i THINK the largest BIN the autoPROM will deal with is 64KB.

EagleMark

01-14-2013, 01:14 AM

Well I just tried to Upload a 512k bin to AutoProm and it says I messed up?

EagleMark

01-14-2013, 01:21 AM

Need bigger chip?

RobertISaar

01-14-2013, 01:26 AM

that's a 128KB NVRAM module.... explains why a 512KB BIN would be an issue.

JeepsAndGuns

01-14-2013, 03:40 AM

You got it, get around cost or avalaibility of re-flash through OBDII port.

Still not knowing anything about OBD2 or flash chips. What makes it so bad to flash through the OBD port, that we are looking at removing the chip to flash it? Seems like your removing the need for buying a cable and software to flash the pcm, and instead making it to where you now have to buy a chip burner, cable and software.
I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, but I guess I am just not understanding whats going on.

dave w

01-14-2013, 03:48 AM

I'd like some feedback on what could be a practical path forward for swapping the flash chip inside the LS 0411 PCM. I know Mark is interested in having the flash chip outside the LS 0411 PCM, but I interested in having a ZIF socket mounted inside the PCM for the flash chip.

I don't have much information about the internal electronics of the LS 0411 so I'm going to ask for some help here.

Is the LS 0411 flash chip available from electronics suppliers like DigiKey or Mouser Electronics? I'm thinking DigiKey and Mouser have the ZIF sockets available.

I'm thinking the binary file from the LS 0411 flash chip could be read and edited with software (TunerCats) used by the RoadRunner?

The idea I'm getting at is modify the LS 0411 PCM with a ZIF socket for the flash chip. Then read and rewrite the flash chip and install into the ZIF socket.

I see many practical applications for a LS 0411 PCM that has a ZIF for the flash chip.

dave w

RobertISaar

01-14-2013, 03:54 AM

the flash PROM is a fairly common Intel unit(AB28F400B). supposedly, at some point in time AMD units were used and they are 1MB instead of 512KB(AT28F800B)

dave w

01-14-2013, 03:55 AM

Still not knowing anything about OBD2 or flash chips. What makes it so bad to flash through the OBD port, that we are looking at removing the chip to flash it? Seems like your removing the need for buying a cable and software to flash the pcm, and instead making it to where you now have to buy a chip burner, cable and software.
I know there is more than one way to skin a cat, but I guess I am just not understanding whats going on.

I've seen several LS engine swaps with completely stock engines in Off-Road applications. Many of these Off-Road LS engine swaps require the PCM be shipped off to someone for the Off-Road flash programming. I think a ZIF modified LS 0411 allows for a lower cost option, than shipping off the LS 0411 for Off-Road programming.

dave w

EagleMark

01-14-2013, 03:55 AM

RobertISaar

01-14-2013, 04:05 AM

http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/mcumall_TrueUSBWillemsupportICs.asp

willems 3 and 4 series supported devices list.

both the 512K and 1M chips are on that list.

dave w

01-14-2013, 06:35 AM

Finding a surface mount ZIF socket in the PSOP 44 package to solder on to the LS 0411 PCM circuit board is a challenge! ... I'm still looking.

dave w

RobertISaar

01-14-2013, 06:48 AM

hmm....

plenty of ZIF PSOP to DIP adapters out there....

it's kind of ghetto, but assuming no PSOP44 ZIF sockets could be found, most PSOP44 to DIP adapters could have the PSOP socket desoldered from them and use that.

JeepsAndGuns

01-14-2013, 03:42 PM

Your understanding the topic. Software to do OBDII is EXPENSIVE and then per PCM license fees.

Guys have already done an LS1 XDF for TunerPro, there are also ADX files being worked on. But uploading through OBDII port poses hardware and software issues, so if there was a chip! The Willems GQ-4X will write it!

So if flashing through the obd port, you having to go through a bunch of other software in the pcm to "get to" the bin to be able to even read and write it? Where if you go right to the chip you can skip all that?
So basicly your getting rid of the need for the uber expensive software and the highway robbery per vehicle licence, and making it avalabe to be done with tunerpro and a chip burner?

dave w

01-14-2013, 04:47 PM

So if flashing through the obd port, you having to go through a bunch of other software in the pcm to "get to" the bin to be able to even read and write it? Where if you go right to the chip you can skip all that?
So basicly your getting rid of the need for the uber expensive software and the highway robbery per vehicle licence, and making it avalabe to be done with tunerpro and a chip burner?

That is the goal, go directly to the flash chip. Some people have the surface mount IC soldering skills to desolder the flash chip, then read / write the flash chip, and then resolder the flash chip back onto the LS 0411 circuit board. The parts I'm hoping to find parts, would allow for desoldering the flash chip, then solder in a surface mount PSOP 44 ZIF socket were the flash chip was. This would allow for "Chip Swapping" like OBDI.

dave w

1project2many

01-14-2013, 08:37 PM

RobertISaar

01-14-2013, 09:41 PM

eh, i can see if this takes off where 15 probably won't be enough. :D

EagleMark

01-14-2013, 10:25 PM

The RoadRunner Header is wrong spacing for Memcal.

Not sure what that origanal RR picture has a ribbon cable? Header plugs directly into RoadRunner Emulater board.

1project2many

01-14-2013, 10:25 PM

That wouldn't be a bad thing.

EagleMark

01-14-2013, 10:43 PM

The real goal would be a header that could attach to ribbon for external mounted chip, then when done tining remove ribbon and mount chip w/adapter on header inside PCM.

1project2many

01-14-2013, 11:25 PM

If I were tuning for customers I'd probably have a single pcm with the ribbon cable or roadrunner and use the memcal or internal socket in the customer pcm.

RobertISaar

01-14-2013, 11:29 PM

probably not a bad idea....

i don't suppose VIN/security issues would come up?

dave w

01-14-2013, 11:56 PM

I wouldn't get hung up on putting the ZIF on the board. The Moates header linked above looks like the proper pin spacing to use as a memcal plug. Remove the eprom and any other chips / hardware from the memcal and you've got a good socket to use for an adapter board. There's a guy selling adapter boards with the ZIF on Ebay for $20 with shipping but I'd bet you could find a solder type for less than $10 and permanently install the flash chip on the adapter. It'd be nice to find a DIP package flash that's compatible but it looks like the speed of those devices could be a problem.

The socket you see on most of the adapter boards is a "Test socket" and you can see it here:
http://www.enplas-ets.com/pdf2/sop_opentop_th.pdf
The number is OTS-44-1.27-03. Sockets aren't cheap though. Ebay vendors tend to be above $25 per socket.
Anyone want to share the cost? This brings them down to $9 each:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320949528460&item=320949528460&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466

Happy hunting.

I'm thinking of making an adapter board. I've done several PCA's for my employer over the last few years. I have experience with Gerber Files. I'll post up some pics of the "obsolete" boards I've done, so I don't to get into trouble! I'm thinking I can make a board that will hold the ZIF socket, then have a dip header soldered onto the LS 0411 board so the adapter board can be soldered to the header. It might make be worth looking at using a PLCC 44 chip to keep costs down and parts availability up? Anything is possible with Gerber Files!

dave w

1project2many

01-15-2013, 01:21 AM

Security might be an issue on later vehicles. I tend to think of the earlier trucks but really everything should be considered. If VIN and other relevant info is stored in the flash then a read / copy operation might take care of it. Unfortunately this gets beyond my experience level. If we get this working though I'm going to have to start gathering bunches of new training material.

Dave, the PLCC chips I looked at could be too slow. If I read the data sheets correctly, the Intel chips had access speeds of approximately 60-80ns while the older technology chips were in the 120ns range. If the processor cannot get data or fetch code quickly enough you run into problems and a crash could result. But I only had a couple of minutes during lunch so I probably missed more than I found in terms of chips. The socketed board with header would be cool for development and tuning but long range, for a customer, is there anything wrong with soldering the flash to the board other than the difficulty of soldering? Is the cost difference worth the work? And please don't get into trouble posting work related files. If nothing else, remove pertinent details or post files with errors. Your work will show through without fear of the design being put into use.

EagleMark

01-15-2013, 01:34 AM

VIN is in the flash. If the same bin file is used there would be no VATS secuity issues. Just don't turn key on with no chip in. Not sure how other modules on the line would like if power was turned on without a chip. You can reflash the calibration 96k portion of the bin in the vehicle. But if you do a full flash 512k which includes the operating system the other modules FREAK when they loose contact with mother ship. So full flash needs to be done on bench. Rule of thumb is safe. Fuell flash in vehicle could cause brick.

So we have a header, Dave W makes a board with chip socket to plug into header, chip socket needs a ribbon for outside chip socket, take that off and put chip inside... Done! :popcorn:

dave w

01-16-2013, 03:05 AM

The .pdf file is for a PSOP44 ZIF socket. I'm wondering, is there 16mm of clearance between the PCM cover and circuit board? The attached .pdf is for an Open Top, Zero Insertion Force (ZIF) maybe like the one in this link (previously posted)? http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320949528460&item=320949528460&lgeo=1&vectorid=229466 I can only see a top view in the link. To plan a circuit board, I need either the actual part or a product .pdf showing the pin out measurements.

dave w

1project2many

01-16-2013, 03:32 PM

EagleMark

01-16-2013, 03:51 PM

Here's what a board for flash chip would look like attached to the header.

3507

dave w

01-16-2013, 04:23 PM

The ebay auction is for Enplas sockets. The spec sheet here has dimensions including pin pitch. Is that sufficient? http://www.enplas-ets.com/pdf2/sop_opentop_th.pdf I have a pcm at home which I believe uses the same case as an 0411. If I have time I can get some measurements tonight.

The pin pitch listed is for the IC being held in the ZIF.

I agree also, it appears the RoadRunner Header is the wrong spacing for the flash chip. It's becoming more and more challenging to make the flash chip in the LS 0411 swappable.

I'm thinking RoberISaar's idea to "it's kind of ghetto, but assuming no PSOP44 ZIF sockets could be found, most PSOP44 to DIP adapters could have the PSOP socket desoldered from them and use that."

Might be what needs to happen. Still need to find a header that fits the flash chip spacing.

dave w

EagleMark

01-16-2013, 04:53 PM

There's some info on the chips and data sheets here:
http://www.omnituner.com/default.aspx?tabid=55&g=posts&t=53

In reading around there it seems the next OBDII flasher was in the works, but things got quite...

1project2many

01-16-2013, 07:35 PM

I could probably use published dimensions and some good images from Ebay to work out the values. Is there any reason the believe the pin spacing isn't the same as the IC?

dave w

01-16-2013, 08:47 PM

I could probably use published dimensions and some good images from Ebay to work out the values. Is there any reason the believe the pin spacing isn't the same as the IC?

I've been looking for low a cost option for a PSOP 44 to DIP adapter. Here's one available on Ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-PSOP44-PSOP-SOP44-to-DIP44-IC-Socket-Programmer-Universal-Converter-Adapter-/271134398078?pt=Laptop_Adapters_Chargers&hash=item3f20de967e I'll order a PSOP 44 to DIP adapter soon, and I will be able to get the measurements I need. The challenge is getting a 44 pin header that matches the PSOP 44 surface mount on the LS 0411 circuit board.

dave w

dave w

01-19-2013, 08:21 AM

Here's a few old pics (2007) life testing some motors. Things I do at work.

dave w

dave w

01-30-2013, 06:43 AM

Count me out on venturing into PCM chip flashing in the foreseeable future. I don't have access to a chip programmer for the AV28F400B chip. My plan was to desolder / read / re-flash / solder / test / a AV28F400B chip before going further. My project budget is not very large at the moment. I might revisit this project in future, just depends on how affordable I can get a 44 pin chip programmer capable of flashing the AV28F400B chip for.

dave w

EagleMark

01-30-2013, 06:58 AM

Have to look but Gq-4X does everything for $100, may need the adaper on top of zif socket.

I use mine to much for 2732a chips or I'd send it to visit you...

HTH!

mekkis

01-30-2013, 07:17 PM

External Zif socket...

Bad idea. I have PSOP44 and TSOP44 ZIF adapters for fiddling with GM and VAG/euro, among others. You have to clean the lifted chip's leads carefully before it will make good, even contact on all pins in the ZIF socket, and even then you have to "snap" the ZIF a few times to get a good connection to read/write. Same applies to fresh flash chips, although not quite as bad as solder-laden pulled chips. Trying to use one in a running, vibrating vehicle? Large pin count SOP ZIF are bench-only gear. You could use a PLCC adapter on EEC-V, though, easiest way to change VINs on them (that I am aware of).

I have a Willem 3 series, does a fine job for ~$40 less than the 4 series, IIRC.

And, no disrespect to real time emulation advocates, but it can lead to slower learning and poorer tuning. With flash based tuning - either pulling chips, or via OBD - you must datalog, think, calculate, and flash. Real time tuners tend to button-fuck things until a symptom goes away, and keep poor track of their changes. Going from tuning a vehicle market dominated by real time emulation of OE ECUs and standalones to the flash based stuff took me a minute to get a good grasp of, but I'm a better tuner for it and in a lot of cases the flash based cars are quicker and easier to tune despite having years less experience with them - go figure.

helo

02-03-2013, 07:15 PM

the flash PROM is a fairly common Intel unit(AB28F400B). supposedly, at some point in time AMD units were used and they are 1MB instead of 512KB(AT28F800B)

I think we must have wildly differing definitions of "fairly common." The real problem in my mind is still getting a replacement chip. Show me a 'add to cart' page from a reputable company (newark/digikey). I've yet to find suitable chips for sale, and I refuse to pull the factory chip off a 0411 PCB without a replacement in hand.

Flashing through the OBD-II serial pin or even BDM header is where it's at for us, though I have not yet been able to find the requisite technical information to make it happen. The OBD process is simple: upload program code into RAM (to download the updated calibration data), but I'd much prefer to start from a jumping off point if work has already been attempted (by who??). Durahax claimed he was able to use BDM to pull a .bin from a 0411, but he never posted the details. Not sure if he succeeded with his diesel PCM yet. Also not sure if he was able to write to the flash chip using BDM (would explain why he hasn't posted a detailed success story). He's close to me, I intend to contact him... (I drove through philly yesterday, HEH).

If any of you boys are holding technical infoz, I'd invest some time to make DIY 0411 a reality with beer-ware. I have a 4.8 in the barn with THREE 0411's, and my L31-tbi has a warped head leaking into the cylinders... =(. I will probably end up pulling another L31 soon ($200 + intake gaskets), but only because I'm lacking requisite technical information to h4x0r my 0411's.

I've seen claims that AVT hardware has been used to read+flash a GM PCM, but I REALLY want to see some source code or technical info that would enable me to write the code for 0411 before I blindly buy their hardware (I figure cheaper hardware is looming). AVT-852 is not cost prohibitive, but I'd like to know how to make it work before buying. (i'm an unemployed uberhaxor, actual coding will be the easy part given sufficient reference materials).

Fawq the $500+ roadrunner and highway robbery licensing, DIY 0411 solution is more important to me than utilizing my $300 4.8.
89 suburban, D60/aam10.5, eccc-4l80e/L31-tbi/$0d

EagleMark

02-03-2013, 07:21 PM

AVT-852 has been reading and writing OBDII PCM since 2005 with TunerCat OBDII, it's all in the software...

JeepsAndGuns

02-03-2013, 08:06 PM

highway robbery licensing

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the vin licenceing on the current tuning programs is highway robbery.

RobertISaar

02-03-2013, 08:07 PM

interesting.... the 28F400 used to be a common piece.... guess it's been out of production for a while. there may be a compatible replacement, but i haven't looked into it. a quick look on futurlec shows the 29F400 as being cheap and available... just need to see what all differences there are and if they're important.

helo

02-04-2013, 04:38 AM

Tunercat/CATS would be perfect, and I would totally go down that road... if it were 1/10th the current price without silly licensing.

The chips futurelec has are 48 pin tsop 90ns (wrong packaging and "slow"), unless I'm just not finding the page you came up with. I contacted a US supplier that may have surplus 50ns SO-44 chips that happen to be milspec.

Google shopping returns a couple of Chinese vendors that will sell small quantities of SOP-44 70ns chips. The OE 512k/4mbit intel chips were 55ns, but 70ns for the 8mbit version. I may order a few, they take paypal.

1project2many

02-04-2013, 05:20 AM

As mentioned, TC uses AVT hardware. AVT Software can be used with TC cable to get version information, cable speed, and to "talk" to pcm. My TC cable is old.., no CAN bus. But it will work with 0411. I remember discussions from years ago, ELM was too slow or maybe not able to do "block transfer." The guys making it happen said "won't happen." That was many moons ago so who knows... Steve Ravet used BDM successfully. No surprise. He was a MotoSemi guy, then moved to ARM. diy-efi pages have tech junkie type notes on doing this. LT1 Edit cable was 68HC908GP32, 68HC58, Max232, and a handful of discretes. IIRC one of those chips needs programming so it takes someone with more skills than I to work out that program (or maybe someone can get the cable?) I have a very strong hunch that cable is similar to what was used by GM once upon a time. Company called Dearborn Group sells many GM OBDII cables. VSI-C2 is J1850 compatible and is probably much closer to commercial development product used by GM engineering. Just today I saw a VSI-C2 for sale for $200, and found a series of auctions running through mid January from a guy trying to sell a cable for $100. Also, you might find an inexpensive USB-OBDII interface cable from a J2354 pass through programmer. Then you'd need drivers and software to communicate but at least you'd have a starting point.

Edit: Just realized that Multiplex Engineering has some interesting cables as well.

EagleMark

02-04-2013, 06:36 AM

I've seen claims that AVT hardware has been used to read+flash a GM PCM, but I REALLY want to see some source code or technical info that would enable me to write the code for 0411 before I blindly buy their hardware (I figure cheaper hardware is looming). AVT-852 is not cost prohibitive, but I'd like to know how to make it work before buying. (i'm an unemployed uberhaxor, actual coding will be the easy part given sufficient reference materials).
If you can really write the software to read/write I can give you what needs to be done?

1project2many

02-04-2013, 07:04 AM

Looking for more information on Caligula, Medusa, Midas, Perseus. Believed to be GM names for PCM / VCM architectures.

EagleMark

02-04-2013, 08:06 AM

Caligula was a Roman Emporer.

Medusa is a greek metholgy creature, if you look at her you turn to stone.

Midas does mufflers and brakes! But I think they got the name from greek guy who turned stuff to gold?

Perseus was also something in greek metholigy?

Someone at GM was into history and came up with code names?

1project2many

02-04-2013, 02:39 PM

They're code names. I need the secret decoder ring though.

helo

02-05-2013, 08:46 PM

If you can really write the software to read/write I can give you what needs to be done?

"can" is a far cry from "will," so exactly what do you mean? I suspect we all grasp the concept, there are plenty of descriptions of 'what needs to be done' floating around. There is a guy on another board that started some work already and we're PM'ing.

However, socketing still seems like a requisite at this point because I don't know of anybody other than the commercial players with working PCM-side code for the flash rewrite (bricking seems likely during development). Trouble is, once one socket's a PCM, motivation to develop the OBD flash capability diminishes significantly (as with dimented24x7).

I have an older ELM-based cable that can pull codes and whatnot, but I haven't played with it from Linux yet to see what all it can really do. Even if it's painfully slow, I'd say full read/write capability would be worthwhile if it's "possible." I'd have used this option by now if it was out there.

24 hours to re-flash is my concept of painfully slow. For simple VATS delete and whatnot, _any_ timeframe would be acceptable for plenty of DIY'ers that can't/won't pay for efilive/hptuners.

UPDATE

Have a few chips on order from China, should show up in march. Will bump when I have capability to play (programmer, sockets, etc). My L31 is under the knife, but I'm probably going to slap it back together on the cheap for now so I still have reason to play with the 4.8 I have tucked away..

RobertISaar

02-22-2013, 04:11 AM

sure don't look like ZIFs, but these might work...

http://www.chip-service.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p190_PSOP44%20Sockel%20Yamaichi.html
http://www.chip-service.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p191_PSOP44%20Sockel%20Meritec.html

they also seem to have replacement PROMs....

this info was grabbed from delcohacking, this thread: http://delcohacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2346&start=10

mekkis

02-22-2013, 04:23 AM

I've broken one of those Yamachi style sockets before, trying to get at a chip. I'd never seen anything like it before . I searched for a few hours for a replacement and for the life of me couldn't find anything like it. Thank you.

helo

02-22-2013, 05:47 AM

Funny how many sop44 chips are on ebay all of a sudden... I couldn't find ANY only a month ago.

A bare psop44 socket P/N: OTS-44-1.27-03
(available on ebay 15pc/$135)

Here's a badazz ZIF for a flash programmer. Best looking ZIF I've ever seen, but probably not easy to hook up to PCM even if they'd sell the bare ZIF socket.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HiLo-All-11-PSOP44-SOP44-ADP-29F800-29F400-29F800-/360433115503?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53eb7ce16f

"HiLo All-11 PSOP44 SOP44 ADP-29F800 29F400 29F800" sold by "tube_buyer" $135

Montecarlodrag

03-02-2013, 03:15 AM

I wouldn't use any kind of ZIF for a ECM/PCM, they are very unreliable and will cause a lot of malfunctions to the car because of vibrations.

I have used many zif adapters for years and they are only for temporary use, not suitable for a permanent install. You always have to wiggle them and test the contact until you get a good contact between pins and adapter.
The PCM flash chip must be soldered to the board or inserted in a PLCC/DIP socket or Pin Header to make good contact.

I have the skills and equipment to do any test, if you need help for the project I may be of assistance.

EagleMark

03-07-2013, 05:53 PM

http://www.chip-service.de/product_info.php?info=p191_PSOP44+Socket+Meritec.h tml

http://www.mcumall.com/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=5015

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MCUmall-Canada-Made-ADP-019-PSOP44-DIP32-V2-adapter-for-GQ-Programmers-/290624206676

mekkis

03-22-2013, 01:46 AM

Trying to muck about with SMT ZIFs is going to be a nightmare. More to the point - we are reinventing the wheel here. There is already chipped 411 product on the market - the Roadrunner. Moates doesn't make it (the adapter), it's a generic header format, but the point here is you can order everything needed from Moates' site:

http://www.moates.net/roadrunnerdiy-solderon-extra-emulation-header-p-119.html

There's a female pin header/through hole solution, so an adapter board for more vibration friendly through hole 32 DIP sockets (27x040/27x080/etc) or PLCC carriers . Ostrich 2.0 will support 512k binaries and map tracing, worst case, needs a socket booster.

FYI, Moates now makes an adapter board for using a RR on a Bosch ECU... hrm.

EagleMark

03-22-2013, 08:12 PM

Looks like what you guys are after is here:

http://www.obd2tool.com/category-24-b0-Programmer+and+Chips.html

EagleMark

05-11-2013, 06:47 AM

Or...

http://www.chip-service.de/product_info.php?info=p191_PSOP44+Socket+Meritec.h tml

EagleMark

05-13-2013, 04:01 AM

Alright, last idea for someone smart... make a USB flash drive that hooks to moates header or something to replace the chip in PCM... no more taking the PCM apart, just run the USB cable out and flash it.

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/attachment.php?attachmentid=4697&stc=1&d=1368406853

dave w

05-13-2013, 04:32 AM

That is a very interesting idea.:rockon:

dave w

RobertISaar

05-13-2013, 05:06 AM

.... so the adapter that Moates supplies is attached to the board, plug in the USB board(or maybe a ribbon cable?) on top of that, run the wire out of the case to have the PROM remotely mounted?

or did i miss something?

EagleMark

05-13-2013, 06:55 AM

This is the header that replaces the chip in 0411 and the RR attaches to it.
http://www.moates.net/roadrunnerdiy-solderon-extra-emulation-header-p-119.html

Now we need something like above to attatch to header with chip that can be flashed by USB... that USB flash card would be inside PCM and a cable run to passenger compartment for laptop... so how about NVSRAM on the USB stick?

It's simple! I'm a genius! Just need someone smart to do it...

RobertISaar

05-13-2013, 07:16 AM

512KB of 16bit NVRAM?

http://www.cypress.com/?id=3490&addcols=&parametric=html&filter_184=512Kb+x+16

that might be what you're looking for. now to program it....

EagleMark

05-13-2013, 07:20 AM

That was just a suggestion, don't want to emulate, just USB flash an entire tune.

RobertISaar

05-13-2013, 07:51 AM

hmm.... would need a microcontroller between the PC and PROM to program it/buffer data...

would the PCM attempt to write data to it for any reason(DTC/CASE/etc)? if so, would need to take a look at the datasheet for the factory PROM to make sure that the target NVRAM would be compatible with its write process.

otherwise, it doesn't seem that far out there to accomplish?

JeepsAndGuns

05-15-2013, 02:54 AM

You guys are going to keep this up untill you get it and then I am going to want to swap to a 411 and CNP ignition....lol

Scott68B

05-20-2013, 08:51 PM

I'm sure this is a dumb idea but what about leaving the chip in place on the board but solder the Moates solder-on header directly to the pins on the chip. You could plug a ribbon in on the PCM side and then into your chip burner if you got another solder-on header. Not sure how the burner might affect the PCM circuit board though.

RobertISaar

05-20-2013, 08:57 PM

you stated the issue: powering up the PROM will power up the rest of the board, and the 68332 won't want to sit there doing nothing....

maybe if it's reset line was being dealt with at the same time(to prevent it from trying to read and execute instructions), it might work?

Scott68B

05-20-2013, 09:12 PM

I'm suggesting powering down the PCM while burning the chip.

RobertISaar

05-20-2013, 09:30 PM

well, that's a problem.... to burn the chip, you have to power it up first. the circuit that the PROM uses for power is more than likely the same +5V circuit that the 68332 uses. so applying power to it will power up the 68332 as well.

might be able to cut the trace and perhaps install a switch to only allow the PROM to be powered and in the other position, allow power to everything else that uses it.

EagleMark

05-20-2013, 10:45 PM

Then there's a new flash cable coming out for around $200...

RobertISaar

05-21-2013, 04:59 AM

one already exists for ~$300, though it does have restrictions as to how it's used.

$200 with no licensing would get a LOT more people in the game.

phonedawgz

05-21-2013, 07:40 PM

Links? for each?

one already exists for ~$300, though it does have restrictions as to how it's used.

$200 with no licensing would get a LOT more people in the game.

RobertISaar

05-21-2013, 07:49 PM

http://www.tunercat.com/obd2/dealerkit.html

phonedawgz

05-21-2013, 08:06 PM

So does that produce a .bin file that can be used by programs such as tinytuner? Or does it produce a harder to edit type program?

RobertISaar

05-21-2013, 08:32 PM

that will write calibrations, probably read as well.

.cal would definitely be supported, .bin would probably be supported.

EagleMark

05-21-2013, 08:53 PM

RobertISaar

05-21-2013, 09:01 PM

you can convert BIN to cal and back fairly easily... it's how i've gotten some otherwise inaccessible BINs before.

dave w

05-21-2013, 09:49 PM

TunerCat WInFlash OBDII will read as .cal or .bin. But only write in .cal, won't even open a .bin It's really not a viable option for anything but the program it's designed for.

You would have to have TunerCat OBDII which will open a bin and save as a .cal to write.

So if I'm understanding what I've read; TunerCat WinFlash OBDII can read / write to a supported PCM (VIN Specific ONLY). The HUGE DRAWBACK I see to WinFlash OBDII is NO DATA LOGGING!:mad1:

What's the point to reading and writing to a PCM if you don't have a data log to tune with? Well maybe being able to read / write to a PCM to eliminate VATS or other parameters for a stock engine would be worth while.:thumbsup:

dave w

RobertISaar

05-21-2013, 09:56 PM

dave w

05-21-2013, 11:18 PM

there's no reason it can't datalog... IIRC, there is even a tunerpro ADX out there to use the tunercat cable with?

also, for $300, you would still end up with an AVT cable that costs nearly the entire purchase price, IIRC.

Good information.

I was going on the information available from the link posted above " NOTE: While the
OBDII Dealer kit allows the user to read and program all the C.A.T.S, supported
GM OBDII vehicles it does not have any tuning capabilities. To do any
tuning on these vehicles you'll need our OBDII Tuner (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/tnr_desc/jetlicense.html), OBDII
RT Tuner (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/obd2_rt.html) or OBDII Diesel Tuner (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/diesel.html)
program."

dave w

RobertISaar

05-21-2013, 11:54 PM

yes, it can read and write, just not change calibrations... you would need something external for that. tinytuner covers pretty much all 3100/3400/3800 applications from 96-05, dimented24x7's set of XDFs for the 01 LS1 stuff for tunerpro, along with anything else i might be forgetting.

EagleMark

05-22-2013, 01:26 AM

I did test a 98-00 Vortec ADX with TunerCat OBDII/AVT cable for dimented24/7 that was started but it had limited values added at the time, he was having issues with EMI preventing it from working on his truck. I'd swear there is one for LS1a as well?

I don't know what guys used in the old days for data with TunerCat OBDII to tune? Monodax...

The 2 best options I know of for data is ScanXL Pro with enhanced GM PIDS which is not cheap but excellent... and a cable, cable is cheap. But by then you could have bought EFI Live Scantool without the Tuning. I use my EFI Live Scantool and MAPS to tune .cal files, same as using TUnerPro RT and History Tables with spreadsheets.

RobertISaar

05-22-2013, 01:46 AM

IOW: the GM OBD2 market is filled with conflicting, semi-comparable tuning packages for more or less the same investment(with some significant outliers).

it's ripe for something to undercut the entire field.

EagleMark

05-22-2013, 02:12 AM

Yup! Had either of the 2 most popular OBDII tuning packages not had BIG fees per PCM no one would ever try. Then there are the resctrictions, HP TUners can't change a VIN once you license a PCM, or change year etc... and the credits thing is so complicated you need an accountant.

This is why I went with EFI Live, it's licence fee is per PCM and then you can change to any year or VIN and OS... but half of their definitions are only flash of cal, not full OS. Some are as worthless as tits on a bull! Way to much time spent to have a large quantity of PCMs and no real quality of parameters and documentation, loads of effort for newer and better software and so complicated it's huge headache to figure it out. Then there's so many programs and options??? Tune Tool, Scan Tool, V8 tool, EFI Explorer, go here do this, go there and do that, firmware, bootware, drivers, version number, registration here, have to connect V2 there.... then if you do upgrade something and don't like it you can't go back? Really it's a nightmare, none of the documentation is accurate because the software changes so much, none of the tutorials work for the same reason, then if you try anything on another mask, well it does not full flash? Argh!

I have a year into it, several re installs and getting the hang of it. I'd have been way ahead if I just figured it out for myself, but instead I spent weeks reading all the docs and tutorials to find they are outdated... Now they have an updated version and have been getting guys to work out the bugs for months? I'm not updating...

The HP TUners demo looks so much better! But the restrictions on VIN changes, Year and licensing make it impossible for my needs in conversions.

TunerCat OBDII does it all with no per vehicle fee, per PCM fee, per anything fees. The only disadvantage is the software looks old compared to the others. So what? It has all the parameters needed for each mask, does full flash of each, was really detailed for what a tuner needs. Not to concur a checklist of we have more then you and so much effort into protecting the fees and locking you out of everything you want to change, fix, etc....

phonedawgz

05-22-2013, 01:54 PM

But the true target market for an OBD2 tuner program would be the single/double user. The vast majority of users only want/need to tune one or two vehicles.

From a business model a lower threshold of entry combined with a per VIN or PCM fee maximizes sales while maintaining profits.

EagleMark

05-22-2013, 05:10 PM

It has also motivated enough people to come up with an alternatives.

RobertISaar

05-25-2013, 02:38 PM

http://www.madtuner.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=42&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=26

not sure what all is included here, but it seems madtuner has at least a VPW/CAN capable cable for $275. may or may not have to engineer the software to upload/download calibrations, along with making up calibration defintions, but IDK.

busta9876

06-12-2013, 09:10 AM

What you are looking at on madtuner's site appears to be the AVT interface used with Tuner CAT OBD2. That is madtuners dealer package to load calibrations from madtuner into customer vehicles. Its same as was talked about a few posts ago, TC OBD2's dealer interface.

busta9876

06-12-2013, 09:18 AM

mekkis

06-12-2013, 05:11 PM

Looks like E40 is chippable, as well.

JeepsAndGuns

06-22-2013, 03:02 AM

I've been looking for a PCB to solider a PSOP44 flash chip to, and on other side of the PCB have a female header that will plug into the header pins that Moates sells for the roadrunner installation. This way you would solve the vibration issue of using a ZIF socket for the chip for semi permanent applications.

If you can find/build the PCB, then you need is a header your eprom progammer. You'll be able to quickly remove/install the eprom to make changes. I currently have a cheap hot air rework station from ebay, and a willem gq-4x programmer. It handles the intel / amd 28f400 and 28f800 chips no problem. I use this process for eprom recovery, clone pcm's s/n and so on.

I'm not sure why this randomly popped back in my head today, but I think this guy could be onto something. Find a little circuit board you can solder the chip to, which you could then attach a socket to fit the header that moates solders to the pcm motherboard. Ya know, something like how the memcal readout header fits into a memcal.....

RobertISaar

06-22-2013, 03:18 AM

could always make a PCB.... something that small/non-complex, really cheap to do. a batch of ~40 or so wouldn't cost much.

the only odd parts of it are the header(which honestly, i don't think i've seen anywhere else) and the socket on the removable board that the header would need to plug into.

so, essentially turning a PSOP44 PROM into a DIP package. it's certainly a neat idea. need to make sure the pinout will be compatible for a target burner(willems come to mind) and it's pretty much ready to go.

JeepsAndGuns

06-22-2013, 03:25 AM

RobertISaar

06-22-2013, 03:41 AM

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=423771&highlight=0x10000&page=224

beemers seem to have gotten it done before.

dave w

06-22-2013, 04:35 AM

I have PCB design skills. One option for building a low cost PCB would be with ExpressPCB http://www.expresspcb.com The ExpressPCB software is free, and not difficult to learn. The MiniBoard is a good option for the money. I'll design a Miniboard if someone wants to pay for the Miniboards?

The Miniboard sould be big enough for 2 maybe 3 header boards, so cutting 3 Minboard might yield up to 9 boards for $51?.

dave w

MiniBoard

http://www.expresspcb.com/GCommon/Spacer1x1.gif

http://www.expresspcb.com/GCommon/Spacer1x1.gif

http://www.expresspcb.com/GCommon/Spacer1x1.gif

2 or 4 layer boards

Tin/lead plating

Board size must be 3.8 x 2.5 inches

Fast manufacturing

$51 for three 2-layer boards, $98 for three 4-layer boards

RobertISaar

06-22-2013, 04:50 AM

i was thinking even cheaper...

itead offers 10 100X100mm boards for ~$30 shipped. might be able to get 4 adapters per board? so potentially 40 for $30.

dave w

06-22-2013, 05:44 AM

i was thinking even cheaper...

itead offers 10 100X100mm boards for ~$30 shipped. might be able to get 4 adapters per board? so potentially 40 for $30.

I wonder about the Gerber Files needed by itead? http://imall.iteadstudio.com/open-pcb/pcb-prototyping.html

Probably have to use software like Cadsoft http://www.cadsoftusa.com/download-eagle/freeware

dave w

mekkis

06-22-2013, 03:25 PM

Well the header for the board of corse can come from moates, and they apparently have a source for a matching socket for it, cause it has to plug into something on their roadrunner board. Only problem I could see, would be getting them to sell them, or let us know the supplier of them.

A bit off topic now as there are a couple guys in this thread woth the experience or tenacity to source those parts, but Moates runs his business as a hobby he enjoys and not to make money. They have an open ended warranty because of that like no one else, ever, and if you called and asked they'd probably tell you where they sourced parts because it'd make Craig/Dave/etc happy to see other folks do something cool.

One of the best companies in the world, IMO.

RobertISaar

06-22-2013, 04:10 PM

I wonder about the Gerber Files needed by itead? http://imall.iteadstudio.com/open-pcb/pcb-prototyping.html

Probably have to use software like Cadsoft http://www.cadsoftusa.com/download-eagle/freeware

dave w

yep, i've been using eagle for my projects so far. after about an hour of youtube videos, i picked it up pretty quickly.

Lextech

06-22-2013, 07:14 PM

What would I input into YouTube to watch some of that?---Just for curiosity.

Jeff

RobertISaar

06-22-2013, 07:27 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG0O9LKH-_E&list=PLB4C63828A483E756

that looks like the series i watched, i skipped some of the earliest stuff since he does go to the absolute beginners level at the start. IIRC, around 7 or 8 is where the potentially non-apparent stuff starts.

Lextech

06-22-2013, 08:26 PM

Thank You

JeepsAndGuns

06-24-2013, 02:21 AM

I have PCB design skills. One option for building a low cost PCB would be with ExpressPCB http://www.expresspcb.com The ExpressPCB software is free, and not difficult to learn. The MiniBoard is a good option for the money. I'll design a Miniboard if someone wants to pay for the Miniboards?

The Miniboard sould be big enough for 2 maybe 3 header boards, so cutting 3 Minboard might yield up to 9 boards for $51?.

dave w

I would be willing to throw a little money at this. If it all comes to frutation I think it would most likely lead to a way to tune a 411 PCM without the expensive tuning software and per vehicle licences. Opening it up to the little guys like me. I wouldnt have a problem at all cutting a hole in the PCM case and making a watertight cover to go over the hole. So long as we can burn the chips.

EagleMark

06-24-2013, 03:14 AM

I've been testing a new flash tool, owner wishs to stay annoyomuos. Right now it will read and change VIN, the write is in progress and works on some OS. It works with a AVT cable which is to expensive and manufacturer won't sell to individuals, so a new VPW cable is in the works. It will be cheap, but not free and no per vehicle licensing.

No dates on when?

busta9876

06-24-2013, 05:38 AM

Female Header that SHOULD mate to the PSOP44 pin header from Moates.net
www.mouser.com (http://www.mouser.com)
44 Pin Dual Row, 1.27mm pitch through hole mount to PCB. Mouser Part# 798-A3D-44DA-2DSE71

158 in stock $3.16 each.

I will order a few of these on my next Mouser order to see how they fit the headers from Moates.

hmilycar

06-30-2013, 05:44 PM

dave w

06-30-2013, 06:07 PM

About this theme,I think I will give you a suggestion and offer you some information on Chip Tuning Tools (http://www.obd2tool.com/category-45-b0-Chip+Tuning+Tools.html) .Them will be useful!
If you want to know other obd2 tools,you can visit www.obd2tool.com (http://www.obd2tool.com)

Hardware looks applicable, but hardware alone is not a complete package for OBD II Tuning! Any OBD II data logging software available?

dave w

busta9876

07-05-2013, 11:26 PM

798-A3D-44DA-2DSE71 is not correct. 1.27 pitch as listed, is actually the lead lenght.

RidDleZ

07-18-2013, 07:33 PM

NICE! This is almost exactly what I was planning on doing myself. Interesting that I happen to stumble upon this thread!

I've got a Willem GQ-4X that I had purchased for some microcontroller projects and bios hacking I was doing a while back. I was going to try and use this to read the flash of a 99 Vortec PCM S/N 16263494. I haven't taken the unit apart yet to find which chip it has, but I will be doing that this afternoon. I have a lot of experience soldering SMD components.. upwards of 200 pins with very fin pitch. With some good flux and some practice drag soldering you can solder ANYTHING. Also, for anyone trying to remove these chips, Chipquik comes in VERY handy!
I too have experience designing PCB's. I use the toner transfer method for quick jobs at home, and I would be willing to help out with this project.

So don't let this thread die! Keep me posted :P

Regards,
Jack.

EagleMark

07-18-2013, 08:19 PM

I don't want to slow any progress here as this chiping will be useful,

But I'm still testing a flash program and progress is underway. It works with AVT cable and a cheaper alternative cable being made. Will work with both cables. It has a lot of useful tools to do other PCMs, but so far LS1 0411 is the goal. Identify PCM, Write VIN, Seed/Key, Read bin, test mode are all done and write is underway. It will already write sections now but not entire calibration or OS yet.

It's still not free, but so cheap it won't matter and no per anything licensing...

RobertISaar

07-18-2013, 08:30 PM

It has a lot of useful tools to do other PCMs

It's still not free, but so cheap it won't matter and no per anything licensing...

and i'm sold. :thumbsup:

as long as i'll be able to read/flash 96-05ish FWD V6 PCMs, that covers 90% of everything i see myself playing with in the near future.

was there any kind of timeframe released yet?

RidDleZ

07-18-2013, 08:35 PM

I am interested in this flash program you speak of. Could you tell us any more info on it? Does it use any hardware between the PCM and the the computer or is it all software controlled? Perhaps an idea of the price-point? No per anything licensing and cheap flashing from the port would be great.

EagleMark

07-18-2013, 10:07 PM

Believe me everyone is interested. Going to change the whole OBDII market place. Great tool for adding other PCMs as well. It will need an AVT cable or the alternative being made, no time frame or price yet. Owner wishes to stay anonymous for time being. GearHead-EFI.com may be the USA reseller.

It is really coming along fast at this point...

ddillenger

07-30-2013, 03:25 AM

devind

07-30-2013, 05:13 AM

In the meantime:

http://www.chip-service.de/product_info.php?info=p216_PSOP44%20PCB%20Kit%20sh ifted.html

4973

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?2073-LS1-Flash-Tool-Released

EagleMark

07-30-2013, 06:27 AM

Still no reason to stop innovation. Some PCM can become bricks with a bad flash and some are locked by tuners. So a chip solution can always work.

RidDleZ

07-30-2013, 07:44 PM

RidDleZ

07-30-2013, 07:50 PM

On another note, I've come across an old friend with the TunerCAT OBDII Tuner software, however his AVT cable is non functional.. which is why he hasn't used it in years. go figure. Can't catch a break. So, for the record.. the data in said software format are not compressed, and can be hex edited back into the original BIN.. Or at least it completely appears so. I haven't flashed and tested yet, but I'm fairly confident. :P.

Regards,
Jack.

EagleMark

07-30-2013, 08:15 PM

Excellent work EagleMark and Antus. I am really interested in the cable.. I have a little engineering in my background, and I'm curious what chip you are using for this 'low cost' cable? The STN1170 maybe? Making such an alternative open source would change everything. I would love to see this go open, so maybe then I could contribute! It only takes one REALLY giving group of developers to change a scene as money hungry as this one. OPEN OPEN OPEN :P

Regards,
Jack.All the thanks go to Antus! I had nothing to do with the program other then testing... but if you follow the link to PCMHacking/DelcoHacking.com there are several people who were sharing source code, so if you can help I'm sure they will too!

Easy way to get bin file from TunerCat is Ctrl T when Winflashb is open and it will read just bin. I forget how to chop off part of the hex added that makes it a .cal file?

RidDleZ

07-30-2013, 08:34 PM

Alright, I'll probably join up on that forum too! Also, my situation is I have the software, but no way to flash or read from the PCM (lack of AVT or comparable cable). SO I've dumped the BIN from my 'black box''s intel flash chip using the GQ-4x. Modified it in TunerCat and cut the chunks of the binary that have been modified out of the CAL and back into the BIN (looking into making a converter for this..) Another reason this lower cost cable would be such a miracle, and if it were to be released open we could make them ourselves! Or improve upon it, ect. :thumbsup: I just cant believe it has taken 13+ years to finally have the possibility of economical flashing through the OBDII connector. haha.. amazing.

Regards,
Jack.

1project2many

07-31-2013, 01:22 AM

GM released OBDI EFI in 1981. It was 1996 or 97 when that was "cracked." The wait has been a bit shorter this time around.

antus

07-31-2013, 08:22 AM

Its great that people are interested in my tool, but you probably should comment either here on this forum:
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?2073-LS1-Flash-Tool-Released

or here at pcmhacking:
http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3112

and if you dont have it yet, get it here:
http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3111

Probably better to keep this thread on flash chip hardware mods, which is also a very interesting topic. Its likely i'll need to do this too, if I brick my pcm before the tool is finished. Had a close shave last night, successfully erase a calibration block, but after a moment of panic and wishing i had a socketed chip I discovered that it was the checksum test that had caused it not to boot, the erase had done the right thing and it was recoverable :) Hehe.

Those kits above look the go. I think i'd better order one now in anticipation!

EagleMark

08-28-2013, 07:29 PM

[QUOTE]GM Tech wrote:
I have a locked LS1 pcm and was trying to figure out how to unlock it without removing the prom. Would be interested to see something like this. :punk:[QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Tre-Cool wrote:
Should be able to do it with a pomona 6109 test clip and eeprom burner.

I'll post back by the end of the week if it works. :-)[QUOTE]

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pomona-Electronics/6109/?qs=Jz4yJwmcGUpbfe0%252b%252bwWzUw==

5284

RobertISaar

08-28-2013, 07:33 PM

wouldn't that also power up the processor.... and pretty much every other chip on-board? unless the PROM has it's own +5V power supply circuit?

EagleMark

08-28-2013, 07:51 PM

:confused:

That's for smart guys like you to figure out! :rockon:

Caleditor

09-01-2013, 02:56 AM

On several PCM's the flash chips are not the only chip that contains the flash. Several PCM flash the mem chip and part of the ECU. If you have a bad flash on several of the PCM's you will need to pull the mem chip and the ECU to repair the bad flash depending on the location that the flash failed at. The older Delco PCM mostly.

The Newer ECM's have another issue that can not be simply repaired by fixing the flash also. That's a whole other story

EagleMark

10-06-2013, 05:36 AM

http://stores.ebay.com/Funkward-Technology/MEMORY-/_i.html?_nkw=plcc32&submit=Search&_fsub=2354615013&_sid=1037341693

EagleMark

11-29-2013, 08:39 AM

Think I found everything needed for this?

http://www.evc.de/en/product/other.asp

dave w

11-29-2013, 04:43 PM

Think I found everything needed for this?

http://www.evc.de/en/product/other.asp

The socket (chip installed) and adapter board look correct to me.

dave w

Caleditor

11-29-2013, 05:09 PM

Caleditor

11-29-2013, 05:14 PM

I will sell my POS 3x and all of the sockets for 1/2 retail price

$98 for the 4x and another $50 for the 2 main sockets --> I am purchasing it now

dave w

11-29-2013, 05:47 PM

This is what we use. Do not even bother with the 3x. We have one and it is not worth using. The 3x is a 32 pin and the 4x is a 40. The 3x must convert the 32 to a 44 pin. Everyone that has one complains that it will not work 80% of the time.

http://www.gqelectronicsllc.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp

Nice to see you take an interest in this tread. I'm wondering if you have a PSOP chip socket adapters like the one I posted a pictured of? Maybe you have a picture of your PSOP chip socket adapter installed into a PCM. The real challenge / purpose of this tread is to be able to swap the PSOP chip.

dave w

Caleditor

11-29-2013, 06:01 PM

Nice to see you take an interest in this tread. I'm wondering if you have a PSOP chip socket adapters like the one I posted a pictured of? Maybe you have a picture of your PSOP chip socket adapter installed into a PCM. The real challenge / purpose of this tread is to be able to swap the PSOP chip.

dave w

I have a PSOP44, PLCC32, and a SOIC8 adapter

We mounted a PSOP44 clamp on a board, but the chip would not stay connected on the road. We purchased a few of the sockets

This board has a JTAG/BDM pad

This is the socket we used
http://www.dobbertin-elektronik.de/devices/sockel-psop44.htm

We tried this one also
http://www.kempower-motorsport.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=19638

We looked at several

http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-DSO-4406

http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOD6SM18-44

http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOF-D630-44/6

dave w

11-29-2013, 06:46 PM

We mounted a PSOP44 clamp on a board, but the chip would not stay connected on the road.

Dang it! Not the information I wanted to learn.:mad1:

dave w

JeepsAndGuns

11-30-2013, 02:44 AM

What ever happened to the idea of using a small pcb and socket using the moates header they use on the roadrunner, basicly making a small prom only memcal (of a sorts)

Caleditor

11-30-2013, 02:57 AM

What ever happened to the idea of using a small pcb and socket using the moates header they use on the roadrunner, basicly making a small prom only memcal (of a sorts)

Like this that I posted
DYI parts
http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpa...er=PA-DSO-4406 (http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-DSO-4406)

http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpa...PA-SOD6SM18-44 (http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOD6SM18-44)

http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpa...-SOF-D630-44/6 (http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOF-D630-44/6)

dave w

11-30-2013, 07:57 AM

What ever happened to the idea of using a small pcb and socket using the moates header they use on the roadrunner, basicly making a small prom only memcal (of a sorts)

Using the links from Caleditor, the two parts below could be used to make the chip in the '0411 removable. Based on comments from Caleditor and other tread followers, the chip socket is not positive locking enough for service in a moving vehicle.

dave w

EagleMark

11-30-2013, 08:14 AM

To bad it was not a positive clip type zif we have seen on there... wonder about the chip availability?

dave w

11-30-2013, 08:30 AM

To bad it was not a positive clip type zif we have seen on there... wonder about the chip availability?

I don't know about the chip availability.

There are ZIF's, usually soldered to a PCB for flashing.

dave w

JeepsAndGuns

11-30-2013, 03:42 PM

Using the links from Caleditor, the two parts below could be used to make the chip in the '0411 removable. Based on comments from Caleditor and other tread followers, the chip socket is not positive locking enough for service in a moving vehicle.

dave w

Get rid of the chip socket and solder the chip directly to the pcb. Then use something like the moates memcal readout header to program it.

JeepsAndGuns

11-30-2013, 03:49 PM

Like this that I posted
DYI parts
http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpa...er=PA-DSO-4406 (http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-DSO-4406)

http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpa...PA-SOD6SM18-44 (http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOD6SM18-44)

http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpa...-SOF-D630-44/6 (http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOF-D630-44/6)

Did you ever try it using these parts, or only the sockets?

Caleditor

11-30-2013, 04:43 PM

Did you ever try it using these parts, or only the sockets?

We tried these 2
This is the socket we used
http://www.dobbertin-elektronik.de/d...kel-psop44.htm (http://www.dobbertin-elektronik.de/devices/sockel-psop44.htm)

We tried this one also
http://www.kempower-motorsport.com/i...oduct_id=19638 (http://www.kempower-motorsport.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=19638)

We also have a clamp type socket

Caleditor

11-30-2013, 04:49 PM

We had a reason for our project. It was not the answer to the issue.

What would the advantage be to a socket?

I can pull the chip, Read it off board, Flash it, Reinstall it in less than 30 minutes if the off board reader works without an issue. Tom aka N0dih does most our the chip work and can do the complete job in around 5 minutes.

dave w

11-30-2013, 04:53 PM

Did you ever try it using these parts, or only the sockets?

This got me thinking...If a header (pic below) was soldered onto the PCM main board instead of a chip, then a ribbon cable could be connected to a "yet to be developed Ostrich 3" emulator. I'm thinking TunerPro is far enough along now to support some of the most popular '0411 Operating Systems?

I'm also thinking JeepsAndGuns idea should work if a ribbon cable was connected to a header that is soldered onto the PCM main board, and connected to a PSOP44 adapter board with the chip soldered to it.

dave w

Caleditor

11-30-2013, 05:41 PM

This got me thinking...If a header (pic below) was soldered onto the PCM main board instead of a chip, then a ribbon cable could be connected to a "yet to be developed Ostrich 3" emulator. I'm thinking TunerPro is far enough along now to support some of the most popular '0411 Operating Systems?

I'm also thinking JeepsAndGuns idea should work if a ribbon cable was connected to a header that is soldered onto the PCM main board, and connected to a PSOP44 adapter board with the chip soldered to it.

dave w
The same header from Moates is much cheaper if I remember correctly. This is the same header for the Road Runner

I think that is the header we used. When we did our project as a repair kit and we had issues with the chip. We looked into going with the wider header, but we found out that was not the issue

Dave what would the reason be for socketing the board?

You can get the chip off of a PCM within 2 minutes if you were all setup for it.

I just got back from the shop (needed the MDI) or I would do a timed run at one

I use a 1/4 cordless impact driver to zip open the PCM and extract the board. Then I heat the chip and the area around it with a cheap Wagner heat gun (Paint removing type from Home Depot). I use a small pick at one end and either push on the chip or sometimes lightly lift the chip. I apply light pressure to chip and watch for it starts to move before lifting or moving it. If the heat gun is already hot I can have the chip off in around 2 minutes.
70% of the time I reinstall it with the heat gun and never use a soldering iron.
I am just a regular GM dealership tech and not a professional repair guy. Tom on the other hand make me look like a noob

dave w

11-30-2013, 07:31 PM

Dave what would the reason be for socketing the board?

You can get the chip off of a PCM within 2 minutes if you were all setup for it.

I just got back from the shop (needed the MDI) or I would do a timed run at one

I use a 1/4 cordless impact driver to zip open the PCM and extract the board. Then I heat the chip and the area around it with a cheap Wagner heat gun (Paint removing type from Home Depot). I use a small pick at one end and either push on the chip or sometimes lightly lift the chip. I apply light pressure to chip and watch for it starts to move before lifting or moving it. If the heat gun is already hot I can have the chip off in around 2 minutes.
70% of the time I reinstall it with the heat gun and never use a soldering iron.
I am just a regular GM dealership tech and not a professional repair guy. Tom on the other hand make me look like a noob

Not many members here have the skills to do component replacement on a PCM circuit board. To the members here that have PCM circuit board component level skills, this topic is of very little interest to them (except maybe you and very few others, and I appreciate your input on the topic!). Many members here have send there OBD1 ECM's to Moates.net to have the 24 pin dip socket installed. If there was an option to have a header installed on the PCM main circuit board and then install the chip installed on a daughter board was available; I think many members would opt to have the PCM circuit board component service done professionally. JeepAndGuns idea is a very good idea / solution for those members without PCM circuit board component replacement level skills.

I personally think the main goal with the '0411 PCM is to make flashing / emulating as ultra low cost as possible. The basic EFI cost rule still applies, the more you know about EFI the less money you pay for EFI. The "E" in EFI means Electronic, so the EFI cost rule applies, the more you know about Electronics, the less money you pay for Electronics.

dave w

Caleditor

11-30-2013, 07:48 PM

Not many members here have the skills to do component replacement on a PCM circuit board. To the members here that have PCM circuit board component level skills, this topic is of very little interest to them (except maybe you and very few others, and I appreciate your input on the topic!). Many members here have send there OBD1 ECM's to Moates.net to have the 24 pin dip socket installed. If there was an option to have a header installed on the PCM main circuit board and then install the chip installed on a daughter board was available; I think many members would opt to have the PCM circuit board component service done professionally. JeepAndGuns idea is a very good idea / solution for those members without PCM circuit board component replacement level skills.

I personally think the main goal with the '0411 PCM is to make flashing / emulating as ultra low cost as possible. The basic EFI cost rule still applies, the more you know about EFI the less money you pay for EFI. The "E" in EFI means Electronic, so the EFI cost rule applies, the more you know about Electronics, the less money you pay for Electronics.

dave w

I will try to get some picture on the next one I do.
I have done maybe 10 or so my self, but it seems to be almost a novice level or work.

I have the pin out for the JTAG/BDM pad. I will look for it. That could also be another way in.

BTW the PSOP44 chips legs break off very easily. I have broken a few. I have my used supply taped down to a thin piece of foam.

JeepsAndGuns

12-01-2013, 03:23 AM

I personally think the main goal with the '0411 PCM is to make flashing / emulating as ultra low cost as possible.

Exactly. I thought our goal here was to make the 411 pcm be able to have a easy to remove chip that could then be flashed/programmed by a chip burner hooked to a computer and not need a special (and very very expensive) program/tuning software and cable.

EagleMark

12-01-2013, 04:29 AM

We're seeing how easy that is...

Caleditor

12-01-2013, 04:36 AM

We're seeing how easy that is...
If that's for me. I have a 0411 at the dealership I can pull the chip and read out on Monday morning before 8 am

EagleMark

12-01-2013, 05:21 AM

That was for everyone and why we started this.

For me it does not matter as I have a couple options for flash. But for the guys who want to only do one! Pretty expensive for cable and software and most guys doing OBDI have a burner.

JeepsAndGuns

12-01-2013, 05:51 PM

Looking at the above links, here is a idea, tell me if it seems workable.

Remove the original chip in the pcm and replace it with this:
http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOF-D630-44/6

Then install this onto it:
http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-DSO-4406

Then install this onto that:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Aries-Electronics/44-3554-10/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs%2fSh%2fkjph1tjJZclYmfaNPaRL9q047Vi 8%3d

Then solder the chip onto this:
http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=PA-SOD6SM18-44

Now we have a easy to remove chip that could be easaly put into a chip burner using the same ZIF socket that we just installed into the pcm.
Would that be workable? I know it would require a hole be cut into the pcm case, but for us who only want/need to tune one pcm/vehicle I wouldnt have a problem doing it, and I am sure a water tight cover would not be hard to make.

dave w

12-01-2013, 06:38 PM

Caleditor

12-01-2013, 09:49 PM

EagleMark

12-01-2013, 10:55 PM

But that was $53 for 6 of them, compared to Moates at $10 each...

Caleditor

12-01-2013, 11:54 PM

But that was $53 for 6 of them, compared to Moates at $10 each...
Thanks Mark for pointing that out. Tom said it was a lot more from logicalsys. I am not sure what our cost is then from Moates. Maybe Tom misread it like I did.

In the morning I will pull that PCM apart and time it.

JeepsAndGuns

12-02-2013, 02:06 AM

The total stack height might not fit under the PCM cover?

I would almost gaurentee it wouldnt. A hole would have to be cut into the case to allow access to the chip. I wouldnt have a problem doing this. I dont think a cover would be too hard to make to cover the hole. Or you could do like you mentioned and use a ribbion cable and a remote mounted pcb with the ZIF on it. Maybe make a small watertight box to put it in.

buddrow

01-30-2014, 06:58 AM

Ok gurus, everbody has been silent for too long lol. I can do the pcb part, so what about the software? Or did i miss it after cramming these 12 pages in 5 minuts? ;)

JeepsAndGuns

01-30-2014, 03:35 PM

I think our plan was to start with the 12200411, which already has a tunerpro XDF. So you could use tunerpro to change the bin, but it has been so long since this thread was taking off, I forgot what was figured out for a chip burner and program to run the specific chip burner. I would have to re read the thread.
Plus I think the news of the cheap LS1 flash that will be coming out may have made people lose intrest in this.

buddrow

03-08-2014, 09:51 PM

I have a '411 project in the works and more on the horizon so if we can get this and the ls1 flash software running id be a happy camper.

cjcalhoun85

06-15-2014, 06:44 AM

Nobody has been working on this? Even Antus wanted this done. I can solder need practice on small smd stuff but don't really have the knowledge to help. If there are some study guides or something I could go over to help me learn I will help as much as I can.

JeepsAndGuns

01-22-2015, 03:00 AM

So has this pretty much faded into the past? Or is there still intrest in doing this?
I am thinking the new flash tool has pretty much made the desire to do this moot?

I do have a question though. If this did happen, would the expensive AVT cable still be required to datalog? Or are there cheaper cables that you can use to just datalog with? Also, what about a chip burner and software to reprogram the chip?

My intrest in the 12200411 has been slightly brought back up as I lucked out at the pull a part and stumbled on a complete untouched 99 chevy 1500 with a 5.3. Got the complete uncut, undamaged harness, a few sensors, and both complete coilpacks. I also have a 411 from another vehicle. It has me wanting to convert my 7427 mpfi system over to the 411.

dave w

01-22-2015, 03:32 AM

I've dropped all interest in a flash chip conversion for the '0411 PCM. I use EFI Live to data log with for OBD II, so I personally have not been looking for an alternate source (cable) to data log with. I think the cable and software to data log OBD II would be a married pair.

The 24x crank trigger / 1x cam trigger is needed for the per cylinder coil ignition system. The 4x crank trigger / 1x cam trigger is less complicated / less expensive. It might get expensive to figure out / fabricate a 24x or 4x / 1x cam trigger for an AMC 401?

dave w

JeepsAndGuns

01-23-2015, 03:29 AM

The crank trigger wouldnt be much harder than a northstar trigger wheel that I had already started on, I will mod one to go on the front hub of my harmonic balancer between it and the pulley. In fact the 24x maybe a little easyer, since there is not two cps sensors like there is on the northstar. Seems there are a few aftermarket wheels to choose from, and possiably a factory one. I have a few ideas on a cam sensor using parts of a couple old distributors and a little machine work. I wont even fool with doing the conversion unless I do the high res/coil per cylinder version.

So is the avt cable pretty much the cheapest cable capable of datalogging and flashing?

RobertISaar

01-23-2015, 03:38 AM

there is some talk on TGO of using a ATMEGA328 as a cable processor..... they cost ~$4, then the supporting circuitry isn't going to be very complex/costly after that. just need software to support it.

JeepsAndGuns

01-23-2015, 03:25 PM

Sounds interesting. But I assume its just in the planing stage?
Do you have a link? It would probably be way over my head, but probably a interesting read none the less.

delcowizzid

01-23-2015, 05:56 PM

can log with a cheapy elm cable clear codes etc with this http://pcmhacking.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3224 or there is a tunerpro adx and its just been used with aldldroid to log ls1 on android with avt cable i think :D

RobertISaar

01-23-2015, 08:00 PM

Sounds interesting. But I assume its just in the planing stage?
Do you have a link? It would probably be way over my head, but probably a interesting read none the less.

not a lot of info at the moment, but enough for me to assume a few things.

http://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-prom/696609-houston-we-have-reflash-4.html#post5866021

roughneck427

02-13-2015, 10:15 AM

kicking around one of these

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pomona-Electronics/6109/?qs=Jz4yJwmcGUpbfe0%252b%252bwWzUw%3D%3D

dave w

02-13-2015, 04:27 PM

Might not work because of the circuits still connected to the IC?

dave w

JeepsAndGuns

02-14-2015, 02:40 AM

Without re reading the whole thread to confirm. Seems I remember that or somthing similar being brought up. And then somthing about powering up the chip to flash it will also power up other parts of the ecm and cause issues.

mattbarn

03-06-2015, 12:44 AM

It can be done if you find a way to hold the MCU in reset while you flash the ROM.

mekkis

03-06-2015, 01:07 AM

It can be done if you find a way to hold the MCU in reset while you flash the ROM.

I haven't paid attention to MCU architecture, but it "should" have a RST pin. Before Moates came out with the Ostriches I had an old school EconoROM 3, it would pulse the RST pin of whichever MCU after flashing to reboot it.

evilstuie

06-29-2016, 02:55 AM

Hey Guys,

I'm very interested in this after bricking two PCMs from attempts at an OS flash with Dimented's LS1 Flash tool. Cal flashes work fine, but it bricked both PCMs trying to flash an OS and cal despite following all instructions.
And here in Australia, the cheapest you can get a 0411PCM for is about $100-$150, so I'd much rather have the option of flashing these directly and reinstalling rather than buy additional PCMs till I get one with the right OS.
I've ordered a TL866A EEPROM programmer from ebay, and looking at the heat gun method for removing and reinstalling the flash chip to read the flash, hopefully decipher what screwed up, and then reflash the full BIN onto it before reinstalling.

Before the programmer arrives, which orientation does the chip go onto the programmer, and what is the procedure for flashing the BIN onto it, I've read somewhere something about inverted byte flash but that's about it.

Also regarding the reset someone mentioned, I found the datasheet on these AB28F400B chips that mentioned there's a reset/powerdown pin on the chip you can ground/power to perform a reset, the pin details and functions are on the datasheet here:
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/505217/INTEL/AB28F400B5B80.html

I was hoping I could put the PCM in recovery mode using this, but I didn't understand it completely, and figured it would still be useless without a modified version of Dimented's program to have additional code to force flash anyway, if that even is an option.

LRT

07-01-2016, 11:15 PM

after bricking two PCMs from attempts at an OS flash with Dimented's LS1 Flash tool. Cal flashes work fine, but it bricked both PCMs trying to flash an OS and cal despite following all instructions

The flash program created by dimented24x7 was for the 12200411 PCM (2001 & 2002), and specifically for OS 12202088 (2001). It should be OK for use with OS 12208322, 12209203, 12212156, and with OS 12225074 (if this OS was from a 2001 or 2002 model year vehicle).

If you try to flash any other OS, then there is a good chance of bricking the PCM. The best course of action is to read the 0411 PCM with this flash tool, and then to only reflash the PCM with the base calibration previously read out. You can alter this base calibration as necessary, including swapping various segments.

Also, if you try to flash a 9354896 PCM (1999 & 2000), which is often used as an 0411 replacement, there is a good chance of bricking the 4896 PCM.

evilstuie

07-02-2016, 02:39 PM

The flash program created by dimented24x7 was for the 12200411 PCM (2001 & 2002), and specifically for OS 12202088 (2001). It should be OK for use with OS 12208322, 12209203, 12212156, and with OS 12225074 (if this OS was from a 2001 or 2002 model year vehicle).

If you try to flash any other OS, then there is a good chance of bricking the PCM. The best course of action is to read the 0411 PCM with this flash tool, and then to only reflash the PCM with the base calibration previously read out. You can alter this base calibration as necessary, including swapping various segments.

Also, if you try to flash a 9354896 PCM (1999 & 2000), which is often used as an 0411 replacement, there is a good chance of bricking the 4896 PCM.
So you're saying the OS's don't work on that hardware, or dimented's program is flawed?
The program is a flash tool, and a binary is a bit perfect copy of the data, so if the flash chip is identical, why would the difference in OS matter if its copying the whole contents?
Also the first PCM was the 411pcm and compatible tune, theOS that brickjed that was the 12208322.

I know the fault was mine four trusting home brew software instead of buying the commercial option, but I thought he had put together a working program.

LRT

07-02-2016, 03:29 PM

So you're saying the OS's don't work on that hardware, or dimented's program is flawed?

The flash program written by dimented24x7 works with a specific PCM and OS. It does what he wrote it to do, but it is not a universal flash tool. The 1999 & 2000 PCM use a different flash protocol than the 2000 & 2001 PCMs.

The program is a flash tool, and a binary is a bit perfect copy of the data, so if the flash chip is identical, why would the difference in OS matter if its copying the whole contents?

It doesn't work like that. The flash tool programs data within a predefined area of the PCM's flash memory. It does not flash the area where the VIN and PCM's serial number are located, nor does it flash the "slack" space. One of the issues is that some calibrations (OS) occupy slightly different areas of the PCM's flash memory - so sometimes not all of the calibration gets written - which will brick the PCM.

Commercial flash software has been designed to recognize the calibration that is currently resident in the PCM, and the calibration that has been selected by the user to be written into the PCM, and compensates accordingly (when possible).

evilstuie

07-02-2016, 04:06 PM

The flash program written by dimented24x7 works with a specific PCM and OS. It does what he wrote it to do, but it is not a universal flash tool. The 1999 & 2000 PCM use a different flash protocol than the 2000 & 2001 PCMs.

Oh ok, but If its a different protocol why could it read and write the flash?

LRT

07-02-2016, 05:01 PM

The point that I am attempting make, is that the dimented24x7 flash tool was written for a specific purpose, and its use will likely be trial and error. If the PCM / OS that you are trying to read / write fall within the scope of this flash tool, then it should work.

It should work with 2001 OS 12208322 - but you stated that it bricked the PCM when flashing this OS.

Regarding the early PCMs (1999 & 2000) - parts of the calibration seemed to move around a little, and then finally seem to settle in place by 2001. So it may work with some early PCMs, but certainly not all.

As an example, 2002 OS 12216125 is larger than other 512 Kb calibrations - reading / flashing this OS will likely be problematic.

I think dimented24x7 is a very talented person to have created the flash tool in the first place. But it is not a commercial grade software.

As long as you can tolerate sporadic failure (bricked PCMs) then go ahead and use it to change the OS.

Once again, I would recommend reading the calibration from the PCM, then make changes as necessary to this base calibration, and reflash the calibration only (not the OS).