TBI Chips .com help! i need a drivable truck soon

[kingcat400]

I have a 1995 chevy k1500 with a 5.7 and 4l60e.
in june i started installing my new motor. a Gm 350hd vortec creat motor. i had a gmpp zz4 cam put in and the cam is advanced. the motor has a 46mm bored tbi and stock 350 injectors at 18psi in a afpr with a 96 k1500 fuel pump. the truck has a set of shorty headers and with a 2.5" mandrel bent y pipe with no cat feeding a summit racing 3" cat back system.

now onto my issue. i bought a custom TBI chip for the truck from TBIchips.com (i know) in hopes it would be good on the first chip. i am now on the second chip and the problem is the same. the truck idles good but when you go wot below 2000rpm it bogs to about 100-200rpm and has a 2 sec delay then starts to pull. i have sent brian 2 data logs and he said he doesn't really see anything wrong. he told me he made an adjustment to the only thing he seen wrong but that just made it worse.

here are the 2 logs i sent him. the first is with 2 bad plugs and the second is with all new plugs. the files a from tts datamaster 0D.

EDIT: See results of a good TBI Chip tune in post 54
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1326-TBI-Chips-com-help!-i-need-a-drivable-truck-soon&p=24788&viewfull=1#post24788

[EagleMark]

Fuel is close enough to not be an issue.

You have 2 error codes 33 and 42 that should be cleared, then rechecked.

Spark advance at idle is only 10 to 12 degrees and with that low a MAP it could be much better with more advance.

The bog your experiencing is usually fixed with added AE Acceleration Enrichment.

You wouldn't be the first guy here with a bad running built motor tuned by TBI Chips .com

[jameslleary]

Hey Mark...vortec heads... Maybe it would be advantageouse to start over using BNKM?

[EagleMark]

Sure would be better spark table... but we have no idea what is used now? Idle spark is way to low... rest not bad...

[kingcat400]

so do you think i should try more base timing as a start. it is currently at 2 degrees advanced.

could you explain what AE does?

[EagleMark]

No more base timing because if it is not accounted for in chip you can be over!

AE adds fuel when throttle blades open, like a carb has an accelerator pump. More fuel compensates for more air until stable.

Bring it to my house and I'll fix it! :rockon:

[kingcat400]

will you pay the gas bill? lol

ok i will leave the timing alone. i reset everything today and i will get another log tomarrow with the newest chip. i noticed that the one code was ignition related. could it be the module in the dist?

[EagleMark]

DTC 42 is EST but also comes up when setting timing. This is why you should clear them and recheck. Not sure why you got 33? Check vacuum line, MAP sensor and wiring if it contiues.

[kingcat400]

here is the datalog i did this is chip 2. chip 3 is on the way

[EagleMark]

DTC 33 is gone so that's good. But DTC 42 is still there? Looks like more timing at idle so if you disconnect bypass wire and set timing you need to clear codes. Is CEL on ?

Fueling is in ballpark of correction. So adjusting VE fueling is not going to help your issue.

If I had only 50 MAP at idle and 10 to 15 degrees timing? I'd have more timing at idle and usually higher MAP. Do you have idle issues?

[kingcat400]

idle is good with an ocasional stumble every few min. i had set the timing back at 0 so ya the plug was undone but no cel.

the next chip is in the mail and he said if 2 made it worse at least he knows to go the other way and that 3 will be good and all the issues will be gone. but im not holding my breath. but i hope he proves me wrong

[kingcat400]

well chip 3 is in and,


holly crap this things runs like crap. under 2k if you touch the gas it bogs. i hope to send him a log tonight and i will post it here also. this is gettin rediculas each chip is getting worse.

[kingcat400]

just got off the phone with a guy that does obd2 tuning and he said he can tune it but i will need $500+ in equipment and software and also a minimum of 4 hours of dyno time. he told me i will have over $2000 in the computer and dyno time to get the truck to run right. he told me that the best way to go is to rip it all out and go to a fast or holly self tuning system. is this true or a load of crap?

[EagleMark]

this is gettin rediculas each chip is getting worse.Ask him what he is changing each chip? It will give you an idea of what is being adjusted the wrong way. Your problem sounds like lack of AE, it is with a stock chip and your engine mods. But now it sounds like to much AE!


is this true or a load of crap?Most guys tune those in person for $250. So you decide if it's a load of crap...

[kingcat400]

eagle would you do it over email/mail if i got the program and the thing that lets you tune straight from the laptop to the computer?

[kingcat400]

what he said

"From 1-2 was pretty minor. Your long term fuel trim numbers were running pretty consistently rich so I leaned out the chip 12% and should have fixed that issue. Chip 3 I richened the accelerator pump programming 15% to compensate for that 12% that I took out of all the fuel when you tap that throttle and should have correct that problem to where should have given you all the benefits of chip 1 but with better fuel economy."

[EagleMark]

If you get emulation and your laptop has wirelss internet we can remote access your computer and talk on the phone while you see everything I do on your laptop and TunerPro RT. Need to rough in a tune then fire up and tweak idle so it runs right. Then it would provide good data for tuning. Only way to do WOT is Dyno in 1/2 to 1 hour this way. Can remote access at dyno as well.

I know we may have brought these up but checking.
Have you ever used a volt meter on the TPS? Should go smooth from about 1/2 volt to 4.5 volts, no spikes or drops.
No exhaust leaks before or around O2 sensor.
Vacuum leaks checked yet? How?
Fuel pressure? Fuel pressure drop when engine revved?

[kingcat400]

ok i have wireless at my house and shop but no acces to wireless while driving. i am going to have tbichips do one more and if i see no major improvement i am going to try and get money back.

i checked the tps with the logger but not a dmm
i went trough and checked for leaks after it had ran for a bit but i will recheck after i drive it tomorrow
i did not check but i am pulling solid vacuum at idle and while driving and accelerating( i have a gauge installed)
fuel psi is at 18 and does not fluctuate much on no load acceleration.

i am also going to talk to a guy that owns a dyno and does a lot of racecar work tomorrow t see about using his dyno

[kingcat400]

ok here is the log for chip 3 and also another log of chip 1


would it help if i tried to log the stock chip

[EagleMark]

would it help if i tried to log the stock chipProbably! What is the BCC/four letter code on it?

Does that truck come with an IAT sensor? If so fix it before the log. You could also turn the throttle blade screw in 1/4 turn.

[kingcat400]

here is some tunerpro logs from today. this is the last chip i had gotten from brian before i said screw him.

[EagleMark]

But without having a base bin to start with I wouldn't know what to adjust?

Spark advance in that log looks good.

Fueling in history tables looks good.

Watching INT and BLM is all over the place, from what you have said about the bog off idle and looking at those BLM INT I'd still say it's an AE Acceleration Enrichment issue like earlier in this thread. Without a wide band O2 sensor they are hard to fix without trial and error. You said he fixed it and it got worse? Then worse again? Who knows where it started and which way he adjusted it?

[kingcat400]

the bog got better with added base timing. but is still there. i will try to get some logs of the stock chip and also the chip before this one.
is there anything i should lookout for when running the stock chip

[EagleMark]

Not really, without more timing for vortec heads it won't run well, with 18 PSI and stock VE it's going to be max rich, nothing that will hert the truck, just hurt your fellings...

Ever get a pop with the bog during accleration?

[kingcat400]

ok i will get some logs of the stock one. this motor has never drove on the chock one so i will see how it goes

[kingcat400]

this is the stock chip

[EagleMark]

Yeah but you never said what stock chip is?


Probably! What is the BCC/four letter code on it?

[EagleMark]

Do you have EGR on motor?

[EagleMark]

Is this the same way you have been data logging for these adjusted chips?

[kingcat400]

no there is no egr. ya this is the same track i used in most of the tests. only differance is now i brake up the log driving and launch.

the code is BJYL

[EagleMark]

Your consistent.

But I wouldn't know how to adjust anything with consistently bad data logs? Wern't you instructed how to data log? I could take half of it to good use but there's still a big half missing?

I'm really sorry for the trouble you have gone through, it's not your fault.

[kingcat400]

he just told me to drive around some and then get on it. if it was having an issue try and get it to do it.

what should i be doing?

[EagleMark]

Half your log was not warmed up, so unless you were trying to find a cold run condition after a starter chip it's worthless. Or strip out half and use it.

Data master just does not have the tools to find AE issues. Again this was realized here again when we compared Datamaster log to TunerPro log, both show BLM in history as in ball park. Again, AE issues are hard to do not hands on without wide band O2 sensor data. Hands on at least you can feel how it's responding to get close and even then to dial it in perfect takes a wide band. Only the tuner would know at that point because drivabilty issues from AE were tuned out.

No idle time so no idle work?

BLM learn was not cleared before another chip installed so BLM numbers are again worthless. If you had not cleared BLM learn data at each chip change then again it's worthless. Unless you had driven several times, over several start ups for 20-30 minutes each, would take a week to correct so BLM data was a good tool to adjust with, but it seems you put in a chip and are consistent with your log route, I've watched them change from high to low and low to high so I'm not totally guessing.

You've been chasing an AE issue and have said AE was increased which made it worse, this makes no sense on your motor build. Let me ask you, was your fuel pressure accounted for in first chip? Second or third chip? There's no way to tell in logs if it was accounted for. From your logs we know spark advance was untouched and stock in first chip , maybe 2 until we found it here, then it changed, hard to remember all that has happened. But fuel pressure and spark table would need to be done on first starter chip to get accurate data logs for re-adjustment. Or it's just pot luck?

I don't like what I am about to say... but... I'm done helping a paid for tuner find his problems so he can fix customers tunes! This is a regular topic here, and other forums, has been for years, not isolated. We do this because we like it, money is not the issue. But using us while he makes money is just as wrong as taking your money... would you like to see a $150 chip with seven insignificant changes and EGR turned off wrong? Ten minutes work is $1200 an hour and it's still not done right.

[kingcat400]

ok I will let the truck warm up longer.

what would you recommend for a wbo2? should i get one?

will put more idle time in.

would that be cleared by unhooking the battery for a longer amount of time?

i would assume as Brian had told me set it to a 18psi when he sent me the first chip.

i have no problem paying you. i am done with Brian and have told many others to stay away from him on there builds.

[kingcat400]

and also from brian i started to get the that "he dont know what he is talking about i will just tell him what he wants to hear".

so i dont know if what he was telling me he did with the ae was actually what he did

[EagleMark]

I really don't want to start bashing anyone! We never have and I hope never will. Hope my statements weren't taken as a bash. Just kind of fed up... everything I said was backed up with proof and accurate as to what's going wrong and how to do it differently or my way, which works for me! He's been around a long time and should have this down pat, but guys like you keep popping up, looking into how and why I figured it out.

I'm not looking for work. My advice here is given to help people learn how to tune, I've learned most from what others have shared and then putting in 1000s of hours of my own. My advice for those not wanting to learn or don't have the time is have someone do it hands on. I've learned a lot by data logs to do this remotely but still advise to get it done hands on. There's so much that can go wrong by mail, first is the tuner is no longer the tech, can the person on other end do what is instructed to diagnose, even then it can take time to fix or not be fixed at all? I've had guys show up and found what was wrong in ten minutes and it's something I had them check! In person I can knock these out quick and I have fun doing it!

I see another issue, you said he wanted 18 PSI fuel pressure, your first post says you have 16? We've had a lot of threads showing fuel pressure gauges to be way off as well. This is one of those things I can't fix by mail? And your 19!!! My son is 19, all his frends are 19 or older and none are old enough to have patience yet! :laugh: Although you have shown a lot of patience and drive to get your built motor truck running.
:thumbsup:

[kingcat400]

i am not thinking you will have the magic one chip and its done thinking. i compleatly understand that it will take multiple trys and i have no problem with that.

if i had some one around me that could do it i wiold but the only guy that could do it sold all his obd1 stuff. so he told me i i bought all the equipment for him he would do it and i would have to find a dyno that would let him tune it.

i may only be 19 but i grew up in a shop full of hot rods a wicked street cars. i know my way around a car pretty well. and if i dont i have 2 genarations above me to ask.

[EagleMark]

i am not thinking you will have the magic one chip and its done thinking. i compleatly understand that it will take multiple trys and i have no problem with that.
It's not magic chip, it's the 1000s of hours into learning how to burn a magic chip, but there are several ECM/PCM and engine combos I can do first shot. I'd never promise it though...



i may only be 19 but i grew up in a shop full of hot rods a wicked street cars. i know my way around a car pretty well. and if i dont i have 2 genarations above me to ask.I figured there was some influence behind you! My kid has been working on stuff with me since, well forever. He got more intrested in tube bending, fabicating and welding and can show me up now.

[EagleMark]

I missed a fatal flaw in your setup! This should have been one of the first things done before a chip tune.

Unless the specs here are wrong?
http://www.chevroletperformance.com/EngineShowcase/dynochart.jsp?engId=ZZ4350&engine=ZZ4%20350&sku=12499712&engCat=sb

So that's about 350 HP, you have 61lb injectors at 18 psi which will support about 254HP, so you short 100HP worth of fuel!

[kingcat400]

it is not a zz4. the zz4 has different heads and higher compression.

mine is a 350 vortec with a zz4 cam.

this is the base motor before the cam so i am probably just nudging 320hp
http://www.chevroletperformance.com/EngineShowcase/dynochart.jsp?engId=350290&engine=350/290%20HP&sku=12499529

[EagleMark]

With 61lb injectors that's about 28psi fuel pressure!

or a more realistic approach is

80lb injectors at 16psi...

[kingcat400]

that would be big block 7.4 injectors right?

[EagleMark]

Yes, or 74lb injectors at 17psi.

[kingcat400]

this is the log from today with the 74ib injestors at 16psi.

[EagleMark]

I'll give my feedback. Starting backwards from end of your log at idle.
Here's what I told you on page 1.


If I had only 50 MAP at idle and 10 to 15 degrees timing? I'd have more timing at idle and usually higher MAP. Do you have idle issues?You now have 22.3 degrees timing with idle adjusted and guess what? Map is down to 36 MAP. Where it should be on this engine.

Bad news, and this is really the only bad news I have. Idle BLM are way to rich, going by your old logs where it idled and where it idles now is 2 different areas so I was off there, was also off on how I set up BLM learn tables, I gave way to much room for idle and now you don't need it, what does that mean? Idle and off idle BLM are sharing same cells except for designated idle cell, same with some off idle cells. To you it means nothing, to me it means I have to strip out data to adjust correct cells.

The rest of log BLM were in ballpark.

I'd have never have found any of this with your old logs because of this!
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1687-Perfect-BLMs-every-time!

Your WOT AFR, going by the O2 sensor reading (which is all we have and not as accurate as a Wide Band O2 sensor) is just a little lean. Not bad. But guess what? Now that you have correct injectors there's plenty of fuel and room for adjustment.

There was only one spot of small knock in your WOT run, and I'm not convinced it's not false, but if it's real a little more fuel there and that should be gone. BTW this is with 7 degrees less timing then you had! All the knock settings in the chip and memcal you had were completely different then your stock BJYL memcal your truck came with so you may not have been getting correct knock counts or retard.

I see a couple spots that may need some AE Acceleration Enrichment? I added 100% to TPS AE (short term) and only 50% to MAP AE (long term), it looks like long term AE is needed and that would be the MAP AE. Are you getting some non responsive throttle, like bog, not crisp? Data looks lean here, this is hard to dial in sometimes as it can feel the same as rich, but data would go the other way.

Is transmission working properly now that you have a 1995 chip in your 1995 truck/transmission? The 1994 chip you had is for a different trans as TCC changed to PWM, completely different calibration in chip between the 2 years.

You should also be using the stock memcal that came with your truck along with the G1 adapter and chip.

How bout some driver feedback?

[kingcat400]

i take it that thread about my chip?

yep ug ha sounds good. :happy: jk.

should i ad more fuel psi to get rid of the lean at wot?

ya it is not crisp that i what i was talking about with the hesitation at low acceleration.

yes i am using the stock memcal on the g1

it drive good, much better then the other chips. the only thing i noted was the hesitation and the tcc locking up a little soon. seems to have alot better low end.

[EagleMark]

Yes, or 74lb injectors at 17psi.


this is the log from today with the 74ib injestors at 16psi.


should i ad more fuel psi to get rid of the lean at wot? Yup, I told you 17 and you set it at 16. The VE tables are set high, it's easier to take out fuel then add and safer. But with the missing 1 psi I'd have to run VE higher then 90% which I don't like.



i take it that thread about my chip?

yep ug ha sounds good. :happy: jk.

should i ad more fuel psi to get rid of the lean at wot?

ya it is not crisp that i what i was talking about with the hesitation at low acceleration.

yes i am using the stock memcal on the g1

it drive good, much better then the other chips. the only thing i noted was the hesitation and the tcc locking up a little soon. seems to have alot better low end.TCC settings are stock for your truck, with the motor build it's torque curve has moved up is why your felling the TCC is locking to early. We can reduce it... how much? 5 MPH?

Tell me more about the hesitation? If it's from dead stop at idle in gear it may be because idle fuel is way rich. If it's other areas it still may be short of AE.

[kingcat400]

ok i will bump it up to 17. in a pm you told me 16 but whatever no big deal. i will bump it today and get a log tomorrow. who knows maybe it will be the fix all.

not so much at the speed, it is when you are at one speed as soon as you are there for a second it locks up. so like if you are acceloration and you let off for a second it locks up. i feel it should be a longer delay before it locks up? it also seems like it takes a lot to get the converter to unlock. when you want to speed up, you really have to get on it or tap the brake to get it to unlock.

when you go to accelerate from say 30mph it just hesitates before it starts to pull, it is not much and doesn't bog just a small hesitation.you notice it more the more you get on it. it also does it from a stop also. can the idle be leaned out or is that because of the bigger injectors?

on the idle thing when you come up to a light it seams like it is idling too high. i wants to push trough the brakes almost.

[EagleMark]

Idle is set high on purpose, it can lowered the idle a little now we have some data.

Idle can be adjusted.

AE for bog can be adjusted.

TCC can be set to lower RPM... but your describing a lot more then should be happening with stock chip, stock tires and stock gearing? Isn't that a new trans? Maybe a transmission inspection after build is in order...

[kingcat400]

OK i bumped it to 17. the hesitation seems to have gotten worse, and i have came to a conclusion it is because of the the richness at idle. it seems to do it more at the lower off idle rpm's.

idle seems fine when in park just to high when in gear. can we even adjust just that?

the trans was rebuil and built to hold the power. i am going to try and give him a call and see what he did with the tcc lockup.

[EagleMark]

Yes on idle, don't worry about that.

The Acceleration issue... if it is from idle, well idle is to rich so don't compare it. Drive in second gear at 1200 RPM approx. and accelerate? How is it? Then again at 1500 rpm?


the trans was rebuil and built to hold the power. i am going to try and give him a call and see what he did with the tcc lockup. Having a tranny inspection is a good thing on a new trans. I knew it was new and you've never had a good running truck, so I did not want to touch anything in trans, it drives tranny shop guys nuts when they act differently then they are supposed to. Let him know tranny calibration in chip is correct and stock for that truck.

[kingcat400]

i did just that for you. i also did it in drive.

[kingcat400]

here is the latest log

[kingcat400]

ok i got the newest chip from eagle installed . he made some adjustments to the shift tables. holly crap. it woke the truck up. i can tell now that i was loosin power not using the higher rpm. he is doing an awsome job getting this truck tuned in.

i attached the newest log. as well as a highway cruse.

[EagleMark]

I knew you would like that!

Sorry we had to wait on the transmission changes while disling in the motor. I was scared your brand new tranny might have had issues driving it with the 1994 chip from TBIChips.com in a 1995 transmission. Glad the inspection came out OK.

[EagleMark]

Kyle, at this point I'd need some feedback for anything you feel needs an adjustment. You've said your real happy and I'm glad after what you went through earlier in this thread. All I get is positive feedback, so no issues?

I can do some fine tuning to fuel tables with the last 2 logs, but nothing that is necessary or you will notice. There's barely a knock count and plenty of spark so we are way safe for a street truck. You did mention you may be hitting a fuel cutt off between 3-4 shift I'll look for.

[kingcat400]

the only thing i could think of is maybe lowering the lowest speed for the 1-2 shift. other than that every thing seams fine. just kind of weird driving trough the sub at 2500rpm

[EagleMark]

OK I'll find that in log and adjust. Yeah 2500 RPM 1>2 shift is a little high if that is a low throttle/TPS? Like light normal cruise? It would be good at say 50% throttle...

Of course I don't see a very light foot anywhere in your logs... :laugh:

For example hitting the fuel cut off at 98 MPH... :thumbsup: I had changed the RPM to match the tune and didn't touch the MPH... :rolleye:

[kingcat400]

ya under good accel it is nice but under light driving it gets a little loud.

ya i have a heavy foot on back roads :innocent2:

did it hit a cut off at 98? i didnt even notice it but i shut down around there when it was still pullin. this truck never pulled this hard at that speed, not that i drive that fast or anything.

[EagleMark]

Looks like you hit cut off, it shifted and you let off?

[kingcat400]

at 98mph it cut fuel off? looking at the log i dident let off till i shut down at 98. the only cut off i notaced while driving was in the shift

[EagleMark]

It was set stock to 98 MPH, the only one I saw in log was 97MPH and you let off, so no I did not see it. But it will not happen now... :innocent2:

I raised WOT shift points a little, should be shifting 1>2>3>4 at 5000 RPM, was at 4800

Only two spots of small knock retard were at WOT and pulled 2 degrees, I guess the timing table is fine because that was an extra 2 degrees PE spark... now gone.

Lowered the 1>2 shift points at light cruise as requested.

Did some fine tuning of fuel.

Chip is on way! :rockon:

[kingcat400]

ok sounds good. ill let you know when i get it.

the truck is going to get a workout tomorrow. 26' enclosed fully finished inside and loaded with everything and the kitchen sink.