$EE Speed Density tune 383 LT1

[96lt4c4]

This is the same car that I have been working on that had the 41 degrees timing at WOT. That issue is fixed. The car also had some wierd surging going on that seems to come and go. I am taking the car home over this weekend to do some tuning and troubleshooting. I plan to get it lined out for my buddy, so that I can be done with it. Since I think the MAF could be causing some of the issues, I thought about ditching it all together. A lot of the LS1 guys go speed density, I was kicking around the idea of doing it to this car. As far as I can tell I need to set the speed desity bit and turn off the MAF error code. Anyone ever do this?

This gets the MAF out of the air flow into the engine, this car is easy 500 hp and I think could benefit from removing it.

[EagleMark]

Been done lots. Speed Density Mode (X= Enabled) uncheck and DTC MAF System Diagnostic, Error 48 uncheck. Then tune VE like always.

Dave W made a VE Spreadsheet for me somewhere here... I lost my copy with laptop failure...

[96lt4c4]

Working on this car this weekend, welded in a bung for the wide band, and tuning for speed density. Going pretty good so far except idle is going lean and BLM's are showing rich. I am trying raising idle RPM and raising idle timing, to get MAP reading to come down closer to 40 KPA. If I cant get this lined out how do I force Open Loop idle in this mask $EE. I see "Closed Loop Idle Enable Vehicle Speed" but not sure what it does. I modified the VE spread sheet floating around and added the RPM and MAP reading for this mask to help me with tuning off idle VE. But, if I cant fix idle I will have to go closed loop.

Here is the cam

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1111&sb=0

[EagleMark]

I've never found a way to OL Idle only with LT1 in TunerPro or TunerCat, but with that cam OL all the time does well. "Min. Cool. Temp. for Closed Loop" raise to max.

The O2 sensors are lieing at idle with that cam, but if it is running OK CL you can play with individual fuel trim at idle settings to remove/add fuel.

[96lt4c4]

I've never found a way to OL Idle only with LT1 in TunerPro or TunerCat, but with that cam OL all the time does well. "Min. Cool. Temp. for Closed Loop" raise to max.

The O2 sensors are lieing at idle with that cam, but if it is running OK CL you can play with individual fuel trim at idle settings to remove/add fuel.

Tuned on the car all day, raised idle to 950, and closed throtle advance is at 38 degrees. BLM's are still split but have came together some with these settings. Car idles really good so I will be leaving it in closed loop. Car pulls hard all the to 6500 RPM, was going a little lean up top though and timing was still a little too high. I subtracted some timing in the spark correction vs's temp table, -4 degrees. Now it sits at 32 degrees at WOT, AFR is about 13.2

[EagleMark]

Nice!

Trying to figure out why you took spark out of Spark Coolant table? Should be set to 0 at warmed up...

Did you ever notice the lack of Stoich and O2 paremeters in $EE?

[96lt4c4]

Nice!

Trying to figure out why you took spark out of Spark Coolant table? Should be set to 0 at warmed up...

Did you ever notice the lack of Stoich and O2 paremeters in $EE?

Remember this thread?

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1181-LT1-Camaro-EE-running-41-degrees-of-timing-at-WOT

I was still getting more advance at WOT then I wanted, 36 to 37 degrees. This was with the table zeroed out. So I subtracted 4 degrees from 85 KPA to 100 KPA all temp ranges. It worked great, it hits 32 degrees at 85 KPA and stays all the way to the rev limiter.

Yes I did there are not hardly any, unless they have just not been found yet. I still do not think there is complete hack for $EE yet.

[EagleMark]

I remember but thought it was fixed. So you still had 4 extra degrees? Is the EST/ICM stock GM?

There is a lot missing and I'm sure it's there. But without a disassembly/hack? That takes a lot of talent, beyond my capabilities...

Your split BLMs, I've fixed them by changing Individual Fuel Trim Off Idle to 1.00 for all cylinders. Then in idle table use a lazer heat gun to read header temps on each cylinder and get them dialed in. 1.00 again on all was better! Remember this Sequentail injection was for emmissions and only works below about 3000 RPM. Strange how differant bins for differant cars were all differant settings even if same motor.

[96lt4c4]

I remember but thought it was fixed. So you still had 4 extra degrees? Is the EST/ICM stock GM?

There is a lot missing and I'm sure it's there. But without a disassembly/hack? That takes a lot of talent, beyond my capabilities...

Your split BLMs, I've fixed them by changing Individual Fuel Trim Off Idle to 1.00 for all cylinders. Then in idle table use a lazer heat gun to read header temps on each cylinder and get them dialed in. 1.00 again on all was better! Remember this Sequentail injection was for emmissions and only works below about 3000 RPM. Strange how differant bins for differant cars were all differant settings even if same motor.


I thought I had it fixed too, it was better after zeroing the table but after having the car all weekend and being able to do some 4th gear wide open pulls to the rev limit, it was still showing too much timing. Since I knew zeroing this table took it down I figured why not subtract it from here to get it where I want.

He lives in the city so there is no room to open the car up, I live out in the country and have some nice straight back roads that knowone lives on. Still dangerous as hell though. I did a 4th gear pull from 45 mph to 120 mph pretty hairy....LOL


The right side seems to be richer across the board. I thought about setting them all to 1.00 but left them alone, or taking the right side, 2-4-6-8 to the lowest setting of the 4 numbers.

[96lt4c4]

Latest .bin and log...See what you think.

Test drive log 2 has the 4th gear 120 MPH pull, also my .adx for logging my wide band.

[EagleMark]

If you set all Individual Fuel trim to 1.00 for Off Idle you'll be better off, then use Idle IFT at Idle and heat of header at each cylinder to smooth out idle. Even drop all to .90 or lower for Idle, this takes away fuel at idle to help with cam that is sending lies to O2 sensor. This is the only way I could get better idle without Prop Gain/O2 Rich/Lean/OL Idle paremters. In TunerCat there is three paremeters to help with this.
Individual Cyl. Fuel Trim Disable %TPS

Fast O2 Rich/Lean Threshold Vs. CL Mode

CL Mode Value Vs. AirFlow

In Speed Density there are no paremters for AE, this is handled by MAF sensor. You can see in your WB data where some AE is needed. Another reason that SD works better in OL. But OL does not help with daily driver when weather changes. The ones I have done were track only so daily reflash tunes were done.

It all adds up to limitations of the masks made. Since all these needed paremeters are in $42 and $0D, I would doubt they are not in $EE, just not documented. So there's only so much you can do to really dial in a tune on built engine. If it feels good and drives good? Then your good! You can't get data perfect without all the paremeters.

Have you tried the MAF? If it still has screen in the MAF tables should work? Screen may take away tiny amount of WOT HP, but without it is a totally differant (inaccurate) animal.
</rant off>

Your data looks good overall! Hows it drive? Need some more fuel WOT to get 12.x instead of 13.x, but I'm not sure if your WB data is accurate? Conversion may be .5 off? Looks like 10 to 20 AFR but conversion is 9.5... should be 10?

[96lt4c4]

If you set all Individual Fuel trim to 1.00 for Off Idle you'll be better off, then use Idle IFT at Idle and heat of header at each cylinder to smooth out idle. Even drop all to .90 or lower for Idle, this takes away fuel at idle to help with cam that is sending lies to O2 sensor. This is the only way I could get better idle without Prop Gain/O2 Rich/Lean/OL Idle paremters. In TunerCat there is three paremeters to help with this.
Individual Cyl. Fuel Trim Disable %TPS

Fast O2 Rich/Lean Threshold Vs. CL Mode

CL Mode Value Vs. AirFlow

In Speed Density there are no paremters for AE, this is handled by MAF sensor. You can see in your WB data where some AE is needed. Another reason that SD works better in OL. But OL does not help with daily driver when weather changes. The ones I have done were track only so daily reflash tunes were done.

It all adds up to limitations of the masks made. Since all these needed paremeters are in $42 and $0D, I would doubt they are not in $EE, just not documented. So there's only so much you can do to really dial in a tune on built engine. If it feels good and drives good? Then your good! You can't get data perfect without all the paremeters.

Have you tried the MAF? If it still has screen in the MAF tables should work? Screen may take away tiny amount of WOT HP, but without it is a totally differant (inaccurate) animal.
</rant off>

Your data looks good overall! Hows it drive? Need some more fuel WOT to get 12.x instead of 13.x, but I'm not sure if your WB data is accurate? Conversion may be .5 off? Looks like 10 to 20 AFR but conversion is 9.5... should be 10?

The car drives great, I did that on purpose for the wideband because the reading in tunerpro was not matching the readout on the LM1 hand help. If I remember tunerpro readout was showing a little leaner. This got them really close. Is there another way to make them match? Now that I have it running good in speed density mode, should I try to stick the MAF back in to see how it does? The MAF still has the screen on it and is a stock unit.

Are the VE tables even used with the MAF?

I tried to richen up the upper end of the VE table (high map high RPM), and the open loop coolant temp table to make the WOT AFR richer.

Also is there a way to look at injector duty cycle?

[EagleMark]

WOT fueling is at "%Change To Fuel/Air Ratio Vs. RPM at WOT". This is like adding PE fuel.


Also is there a way to look at injector duty cycle?Yes in TunerCat but no hack info for TP...

Wide band reading differant is probably a ground issue, not same ground for LM-1 and AutoProm.

I'd try the MAF. Many people say VE is not used in MAF except for cranking or if MAF fails... but I saw changes? MAF is all through MAF tables which is airflow, so where does it get fuel info? In LS 0411 there are VE tables under MAF. MAF tables are differant from Y body to B body to F body... so use MAF tables from whatever matches MAF sensor. But yours will be off by the differant cubic inch from stock. Could figure difference in cubic inch % and add that % to each entry, unless someone has given up MAF table for 383. Lots of unknowns... may have been more info back in the day? Can't find any saved... your finding same roadblocks I did...

[96lt4c4]

WOT fueling is at "%Change To Fuel/Air Ratio Vs. RPM at WOT".This is like adding PE fuel.


Should I add or take away to add more fuel. I noticed larger numbers for lower RPM's and lower numbers at high RPM's.

[EagleMark]

Add to any area that needs more fuel. I saw some to rich AFR at lower RPM during that pull but then seemed to lean to 13.7 to 1 and stay there.

[96lt4c4]

Add to any area that needs more fuel. I saw some to rich AFR at lower RPM during that pull but then seemed to lean to 13.7 to 1 and stay there.

That would explain why it seemed like it leaned out a little up top. The last 3 settings (6000, 6400, and 6800 RPM) in that table were at 2.73% where 5600 RPM was at 4.69%.

[EagleMark]

Pretty common for stock tunes to cut fuel. Built in rev limit... motor falls on face so you shift.

[EagleMark]

Also is there a way to look at injector duty cycle?Sorry there is BPW in the TP data, would have to make other values to come up with duty cycle.

[96lt4c4]

Reflashed the car when i got home last night, fired it up and everything was going good until it went into closed loop and then it started doing that surge crap again where it almost dies. The wide band showed that the car went way lean. I maxed out the closed loop temp so that it stays in open loop. The car was idling around 14.5 in open loop. I drove it and everything seemed fine. I am thinking its becasue of the cam and the 02 sensors at idle. Do you think it would make a difference letting it get a little warmer before it goes close loop? Raise the close loop temp to about 49 degrees C or 120 degrees F. I would like to keep from running the car in open loop all the time.

Also when I try to rev the car at cold idle it stalls and the wide band shows a lean drop. The only way I could get rid of that was to put the rich stock VE table back in, then it would rev.

I also figured out that the car is idling around 50 KPA where the log is showing 39 to 40 KPA.

[EagleMark]

When your done chasing this remember I said just go OL... Cam is lieing to O2 sensor. Without the paremeters to go OL idle or make changes to O2 sensor it's hard to get idle.

I've never tried to go CL higher temp to cure this but anything is worth a shot as a learning experiance.

That said, with WOT locker inatalled if you change WOT PE TPS% to 0-1 then BLM are locked and tune it WB. Can also do this with MAF and better results, adjusting MAF same way as VE. DO VE first, then MAF. Everything I have seen in tuning these points to a shared, not MAF only. MAF is airflow and uses VE as a multiplier for fuel. Next time I have one I will prove or disprove this.

You may also have a lazy/bad O2 sensor on right side. Right side did not turn read till about 150F and only did so when you revved the engine.

There's also an issue with BLM learn cells. The way they are arraigned you don't use low cells at all with MAP change at idle from cam. So BLM for idle are sharing cells with off idle and driving. Then you have some BLM learn stored in PCM and make adjustments to bin and they are fighting the BLM learn stored.

Then there's individual fuel trim and split BLMs. I've gotten around this by closing throttle baldes as much as possible, oppisite of TBI. Can make some changes to throttle blade opening 1/4 turn at a time and BLMs come together. Couple degrees spark can also change this, I think your idle timing is a little high.

So take that with a grain of salt. Disconnect batterey to clear BLM learn and use this bin, it's your's from earlier with some changes to BLM cells, RPM and MAP. It will split up BLM learn from idle and off idle cruise. It also has some individual fuel trim changes that worked for me. Real way to do this is an IR heat gun on headers at idle fully warmed up after a drive.

HTH!

[EagleMark]

I forgot I also saw CCP and EGR come on a few times?

[96lt4c4]

Ok, thanks. I have not messed with the BLM cell boundaries before. I ended up putting the MAF back on it last night becasue of the off idle stumble, now that is fixed. These are the original 02's in the car. May get 2 brand new ones and stick them in.

I never looked at the wide band with the MAF installed. When I brought the car home I installed the bung and removed the MAF to go to speed density and started tuning. When I put the MAF back on last night it was runing a little lean at idle on the WB. I played with the 1st MAF table and got it to read 14.5-14.7 open loop idle.

Then with the open loop coolant temp set back to stock, it started going in and out of closed loop at temp, about 180*F.

I will turn the MAF back on in your bin, install 2 new 02's, try to close throttle blades as much as posible and see what happens. Its funny that you mention closing the throttle blades, because this car has a 58 mm TB on it. I read a lot about guys installing bigger TB's and having problems with split BLM's.

In my old 96 LT4 Corvette, I had pretty much the same motor as this Camaro. It had ported stock LT4 heads and Intake, with the same exact cam, stock TB though. I ran a ODB1 PCM, never had these problems. Car ran in closed loop fine. I am :mad1: with this one.

[EagleMark]

With right O2 not ready that long in your log and now this new OL issue when warmed up I'd bet that right O2 heater is not working and as old as they are your going to run differant with new ones.

[96lt4c4]

With right O2 not ready that long in your log and now this new OL issue when warmed up I'd bet that right O2 heater is not working and as old as they are your going to run differant with new ones.

Just ordered 2 brand new AC Delco sensors form the stealership. They will be in tomorrow, I bet that is a big part of the problem.

[gregs78cam]

...... form the stealership.


:laugh: I never heard that one, I like it.

[96lt4c4]

Well put the 2 new 02's in last night and now it looks like I am going to have to start all over. I drove it and now the WOT AFR is 10.5 with the MAF on the car. So I am going to have to play with the MAF tables. I took some logs but do not have them with me. I will check it cold tonight and see what it does.

[EagleMark]

I was afraid of that. May want to check VE table in SD first, then dial in MAF.

[96lt4c4]

Well I guess I am done for now, tuned on it most of the day yesterday and got it lined out pretty good. Mark, that bin that you uploaded, I am not sure if you meant to do it on purpose or not but by setting the low BLM map to 50 KPA, the BLM's are not updating at idle. Which is a good thing, its like being in open loop idle, even thought the car is in closed loop. I had a small lean spike right off throttle while lugging the car, it was causing the car to buck. This was from the large TB, so I played with the 1st and second MAF tables and got rid of the that. The problem was right between the 2 tables. WOT AFR is in the 12's now. I also took some idle timing out, down to 30 degrees, and seemed to like that. Idle seems smoother, its dow to 875 RPM with about 35 IAC counts and the throttle blades just barely cracked.

The car is just hard to drive and log because it just blows the tires off. I was trying to do a 3rd gear pull being easy on the throttle, got to about 75 mph and went on and pushed it to the floor and it started smoking the tires....just a little scarey. I can put the car in 4th at 35 MPH and floor it, and run it all the way to 120 MPH, that gives the best data but its too dangerious. The weather finally started getting cold so that does not help.

[EagleMark]

Sweet! :thumbsup:

What those changes did was keep things in there own cells. Not updating at idle because that cell is in ballpark and not changing cell. There's 16 BLM learn cells numbered 1 to 15. But there's also cell 16 which is 0% TPS and 0 MPH, 17 which is 0% TPS some MPH and 18 which is a catch all for WOT, CCP, DFCO, and I'm not sure all it's purposes but you were getting it off idle? I think because of the RPM and MAP Hystreis which was also changed.

Or split BLMs?

Split BLM must really mess this up too. Unless there's 2 BLM Learn cell tables? I don't think so as when BLM are split there does not seem to be a change? They cancel each other? And how do you adjust? Use the low one or high one?

There's a lot of other paremeters to help with cam built engine issues in $42 or other more well defined masks like INT Delay vs Airflow, Prop Gains, O2 - Idle AFR Bias Value, Prop Gain Duration for Idle, etc...

That thing sounds wild to drive! You know you can detune it some to make it more street freindly. Take out spark and add it back when needed in PE and PE TPS%.

[RobertISaar]

split BLMs is indicating that one bank(or at least a cylinder in the bank) has some kind of fueling difference. i would correct that via the individual cylinders trims.

also the two MAF tables? i don't know why it was setup that way, but in reality, it's only one table, i verified this in the algorithm when i was looking to turn the $2E MAF tables(8 of them, i think) into a single large table.

[96lt4c4]

split BLMs is indicating that one bank(or at least a cylinder in the bank) has some kind of fueling difference. i would correct that via the individual cylinders trims.

also the two MAF tables? i don't know why it was setup that way, but in reality, it's only one table, i verified this in the algorithm when i was looking to turn the $2E MAF tables(8 of them, i think) into a single large table.


Someone has just made the .xdf that way. There are 4 tables in most of the .xdf files floating around for $EE. I May take the time to go ahead and combine them all into one table. Thats the HP Tuners has it for all thier stuff, like for my 99 LS1 Camaro, only has one table.

It has a brand new set of Ford SVO 30 pound injectors on it so I am guessing may have some on the right side flowing more fuel.

[96lt4c4]

Sweet! :thumbsup:

What those changes did was keep things in there own cells. Not updating at idle because that cell is in ballpark and not changing cell. There's 16 BLM learn cells numbered 1 to 15. But there's also cell 16 which is 0% TPS and 0 MPH, 17 which is 0% TPS some MPH and 18 which is a catch all for WOT, CCP, DFCO, and I'm not sure all it's purposes but you were getting it off idle? I think because of the RPM and MAP Hystreis which was also changed.

Or split BLMs?

Split BLM must really mess this up too. Unless there's 2 BLM Learn cell tables? I don't think so as when BLM are split there does not seem to be a change? They cancel each other? And how do you adjust? Use the low one or high one?

There's a lot of other paremeters to help with cam built engine issues in $42 or other more well defined masks like INT Delay vs Airflow, Prop Gains, O2 - Idle AFR Bias Value, Prop Gain Duration for Idle, etc...

That thing sounds wild to drive! You know you can detune it some to make it more street freindly. Take out spark and add it back when needed in PE and PE TPS%.

Its a hand full I know that, its running good, no more idle problems, timing and AFR at WOT are in check so no worries about burning up a piston. The car has a set of Advance Induction heads on it, which is part of the reason its so nasty. May talk him into sticking it on a dyno to see what its making.

BLM's are still split. I thought about bring a data logger home from work and putting a thermo couple on each header tube to make fuel adjustments. But, it runs good, its not my car, and i am doing this for free. I just dont have the time so I am going to give it back to him. I am sure he will be happy with the way it runs...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6N-GLid3J8

[EagleMark]

Someone has just made the .xdf that way. There are 4 tables in most of the .xdf files floating around for $EE. I May take the time to go ahead and combine them all into one table. Thats the HP Tuners has it for all thier stuff, like for my 99 LS1 Camaro, only has one table.

It has a brand new set of Ford SVO 30 pound injectors on it so I am guessing may have some on the right side flowing more fuel.EFI Live is also one table. I wonder if there was a size issue in old TP masks?

The split BLMs is airflow, some cylinders at that low air flow get more or less air, even worse with the cam. But if you play with the throttle blades a little near closed (not stuck) to about half turn theBLM get closer. Then use an infared heat gun to adjust EGT off headers with the Individual Fuel Trim at idle. Then feather the IFT Off idle. Worked for me... if you change idle RPM you start over...

[96lt4c4]

I took the time to combine all 4 MAF tables to one. It really helped me see the whole graph. The only thing is the table is so long that TP will not let you scroll all the way to the bottom of the table. But, you can mod it in the graph or just use the 4th table still in the .xdf

[EagleMark]

The only thing is the table is so long that TP will not let you scroll all the way to the bottom of the table. I think you found why the tables are split in TP...

[96lt4c4]

I think you found why the tables are split in TP...

LOL...yeah. Its still cool to have them all together for the graph feature, you can smooth them all together now.

[RobertISaar]

...... you guys don't have a scroll bar pop up on the side with larger tables? i do.

[EagleMark]

I didn't try it till now but yes I do, it works fine and having them all in one really makes the graph usable!