69 Van Project update

[AzDon]

First, I want to thank all of the folks here that helped me with schematics and with my thought process in figuring out how exactly to accomplish a running vehicle through sorting and cleaning up a "rats nest" of a factory harness....It was here that I gained the courage to believe that moving a factory GM harness to a vehicle could even work....

It's been a couple of years journey building my van to incorporate simple 90s era GM TBI...
I decided to use a TBI305/700r4/323posi from a crashed 91 wagon because I also drive one as a daily and have several good wiring schematics and the Factory Service Manual (FSM)....



I was going to use a TBI454/4L80e from a 95 burb, but it just didn't look like it would fit comfortably when I started measuring....
I accepted the challenge of massaging the factory TBI harness to fit the vehicle, keeping all of the sensor utilities that I thought might matter to the ECM and even putting toggle switches on a few unused wires in case they matter.....
So my question today is about Timing.....
I timed it at 0 degrees with a timing light with the "base timing" link unplugged as the FSM says to do it....This resulted in 17 degrees while idling at 500rpm with the connector plugged back in....
This van runs freakin AWESOME!....It idles good, no dead spots, no misfires, no gasping of the IAC......
The problem I'm having is that within about 10 minutes of heading out, the temp creeps past 230 degrees and was past 250 yesterday after about 15 minutes out....
I set it up with an ebay aluminum radiator slung pretty low with an electric fan from an 84 z28 and custom shroud.....It has a thermostat housing radiator cap and I also have a factory 7 blade fan and clutch moving air through.....I have the heater hose looped (no heater) and the 700r4 is cooled by the radiator only.....And I'm running without a thermostat...
I'm going to install one of my custom locked fan clutches and maybe put a separate cooler for the trans.... Also some type of large heater core with a fan on it as an additional radiator, but I want to start simple (and cheap)

Is there any point in pulling back on the timing, or is the ECM just going to override any adjustment I make physically?

I think ultimately, adding cooling capacity and air movement is going to be the answer, but if I can solve the issue more simply, I'd be thrilled!

183991840018398 18401

[In-Tech]

Way cool project :)
I noticed your egr is not connected. If you are using a stock file, when the egr goes active in the calibration it will pull fuel away "thinking" the egr is working. If you have the ability to turn that off in the chip, do so. Otherwise you need to get the egr solenoid in there and hook all that up.
Is it a "new" water pump? Does the temp seem to cycle? One thing I have run across is the wrong backing plate on the water pump and it was cavitating.

[AzDon]

Thanks for the reply!..... The water pump is new ACDelco from RockAuto......The temp just creeps a couple of degrees at a time, not losing any temp (cycling) as it rises because I have the fan running full time and no thermostat.... My wagon runs 130-160 all the time set up like this with A/C blowing ice cubes in 110 degree weather
I had disconnected and plugged the EGR stuff on my daily (wagon) and it runs fine so I didn't even run wires for the solenoid..... (mistake, I guess)..... I also don't have the stuff for the Air injection in place...... And the exhaust is bullet glass-packs after the 1-wire oxygen sensor in the right pipe (only reading one side)....I guess I should pull spark plugs and look for lean-ness.....
This radiator was listed as being for a big-block early Camaro and looks very nicely put together, but I'm suspicious (chinese)..... I've ordered a 32lb cap for the radiator itself because the engine's fill level is quite a bit higher (16 lb cap on t-stat housing).....
Are you saying the EGR stuff needs to be fully operational to provide richness that the ECM is pulling? Is there an external work-around other than a re-flash?...
Is 17 degrees of timing at no-load idle okay (?) as that is where zero degrees in base timing puts me when I re-connect the link.....I always set about 8 degrees in the carbureted era.....Can timing be backed out physically, or does the ECM just put it back?
I realize these are kind of noob questions..... I'm not really a "tuner", I just want the van to run reliably without further thought once I got it dialed in.....
I'd be okay with buying a reflashed chip, but I really haven't studied up on reliable sources.... Any suggestions?
Right now I'm limited to within six blocks of home and it feels like house arrest!...

[In-Tech]

Are you saying it has heating problems even at idle? The egr is only active at light throttle. Shoot me the alphanumeric broadcast code that is on the silver sticker on the chip.

[stew86MCSS396]

What's the part number on the water pump and what application did you order it for?

[AzDon]

The water pump is AC Delco 88926233 ordered for 91 Caprice (serpentine reverse rotation)....
The ECM is 16136965 with a four letter code of AYDM
I haven't pulled the cover to look at the chip yet.....
The two episodes of building heat were during test drives around the neighborhood which is easy driving under 35 mph.....Next I will try just starting it and allowing it to idle....
Driving it would also put transmission heat on the radiator....
I forgot to mention that I do have a remote oil cooler mounted away from and completely divorced from the radiator.....
I think I'll check everything with an infrared thermometer and I might try knocking the timing back a couple of degrees....

[Moofus02]

No thermostat will do that. Water passes so fast it can't transfer the heat. If you don't want a thermostat gut the center out of one for a restriction. That should fix the issue

[AzDon]

So, A bit more background...
The radiator is in the factory location, but lowered 3 inches and has an aluminum under-scoop that is the width of the chassis out to the front leaf hangers.... It has an electric fan from an 84 z28 on a custom shroud with no gaps....The engine is 18 inches back and maybe an inch lower than stock and has a factory serpentine rotation 7 blade fan with a clutch, basically there to move air through.... I built the doghouse extra large and aero inside to help move air through.....I gutted a thermostat and re-installed the disc to partially restrict the flow, but mainly to provide a proper sealing surface for the gasket....
The electric fan turns on automatically at 190 and off when it cools to 174..... the sensor for that is screwed into the heater-hose port near the distributor.....
I did an idling test, in gear against the e-brake....
It took 25 minutes to reach 190 and turn the fan on
2 minutes to cool back to 174
3 minutes to hit 190 again
2 minutes to 174
turned the fan manual switch on and it dropped to 158 in about 5 minutes
put it in neutral and it got to 152 about 4 minutes later....
Never went past 190 for this test because the fan kicks on and it apparently has enough cooling capacity to idle...never lost a drop of water from either 16 lb cap.....
It's low-stall, so it did have some load and a bit of transmission heat........
It's 95 degrees here as I'm doing this test.....
I guess my issues only show up when I'm driving it around the neighborhood which is max 35 mph...
I'm going to try a 32 lb cap on the radiator (16 Lb cap at the t-stat housing fill) and a locked fan clutch first and then probably pull a couple of degrees of timing before trying a divorced trans cooler and some kind of heater core hanging under the van.....I'm also willing to consider that I need a modified chip with EGR and A.I.R functions erased.....

[In-Tech]

Hiya Don,
Great info, I don't have a copy of that chip in my archives. My info shows that to be a 27256 memcal. Shoot a pic of it under the cover when you get a chance. I would definitely turn off the egr in the chip as a good start. I love your project, I'd be glad to reprogram that for you, the rub is your van will be down a few days shipping back and forth.

After you try retarding the timing, advance it about 4-5 degrees with 91 octane. This will lower underhood temps drastically. I'll do the rest in the chip so you can put it all back to stock. I am not sure if the 91 caprice base timing is zero, check into that too.

[AzDon]

Thanks Carl....
It's actually Olds Custom Cruiser and I got the zero degrees spec with the base timing link unplugged out of the FSM for these cars....
Zero degrees becomes 17 degrees when I plug the link back together.... I'm thinking thats a bit much, but I'm wondering if physically retarding it will work (?) or if the ECM will just override my changes(?).... I have just been using 87 octane and hadn't thought about lowering combustion temps with 91 octane....
The chip mods seem like the most logical starting point, but unsure....
What would/should it cost me to get it done?.....How would I package and ship for best results?
I just pulled the cover and the black plastic covered item on the right that looks like it might unplug has a foil strip showing the letters BCDU and numbers above that with their top halves covered looks like 1010 or 1818 or 1313 or 1616 or any other combination with two 1s in first and third position...There was also a scan code sticker on the board #s 435091112751157
This is my first time inside an ECM and I'm unsure what precautions or care I would need to exercise while removing/handling this stuff...

[In-Tech]

Hiya,
The ecm is a dumb box, it doesn't know what you do with the base timing, it just does its' business assuming base timing is stock. The only reason I suggested 91 octane is just for safety if you advance the base timing.
For this project, no charge on the labor. USPS priority mail small box(I think it's ~$9) is easy.

Do you have or know where another one of those vans is? I see an LS swap in it's future if you do. Maybe a corvette ls3 drivetrain, torque tube and all :jfj:

[AzDon]

I actually have a donor c2500 Suburban (95) with a 454/4L80 that I fully intended to use until I started measuring......Being that the engine's cabin is fully surrounded by the travel cabin, I considered it VERY important that there was ample air space inside there for it to breathe and even more important, exhale hot air....
I've been eyeing the Blueprint 350 that has big aluminum heads, roller cam, a dyno sheet proving 341HP and a 50 month warranty for under $4100......
Funny, but folks are too busy chasing used 5.3s to have any interest in this 454....
Where are you located? These vans are out there for sale pretty frequently, but rust and pricing are becoming problematic...
I just passed on one a month ago for $800 in SoCal....but deals are getting rare.....

[In-Tech]

I'm in central cali. Yeah, the LS swap crowd is a growing thing. I just dragged home a '78 C2500 "Fall Guy" truck. I am building a ~500hp 6L 4l80e for it.
Man, your project is begging for a tuned port intake, massive increase in torque and fuel economy, the cool factor too. It might end up being all you want for now :innocent2:

[AzDon]

Our local YouTube car guy Merlon (Merlons Old School Garage) is hooked up with the local towing guy, marketing and installing LS engines, mostly in Jeeps....
I prefer pre-LT1 stuff and actually kind of happy that nobody else wants the stuff (My mom had an LT1 Camaro and the optispark was a PIA)....
This van already runs better than the 66 short van I had years ago with a 396, but I've got to get comfortable driving it before I can consider upping the power because it's the first vehicle I've driven in years without power disc brakes or power steering and it's still on a straight axle with leaf springs.....
In addition to the 18 inch engine setback and rear posi, I did a front axle flip and set the accessory drive up with dual alternators with the second one wired separately to it's own battery, which can be tied in with the other at the flip of a switch.... It also got an in-pump tank spec'd for a 88 van.... I've been working on it since 2014...
I have a couple of build blogs here: https://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t59138-azdon-s-108
and here: https://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t62221-azdon-s-108-ready-to-roll
I also share lots of advice and opinions regarding building and setting up first and second gen chevy vans (none related to fuel injection)
I hope to move on to installing an interior in this van and maybe finding a next project to be the home for this 454 I've got (or MAYBE I need to re-measure for fitment in this van)
Oh, the "dumb box" comment..... Would cutting back base timing 2 degrees pull the whole curve back 2 degrees, or does the ECM just ignore the mechanical setting of the distributor completely?....
Also, the idea of putting Corvette independent suspension under one of these vans is very intriguing because the factory unibody is tucked WAY up under the body, so it could literally be dropped onto a chassis, while hiding it well and still being low....The vans are relatively wide, using axles that are 65 inches drum to drum.....Independent suspension solves the issue of too-short driveshafts.... Sorry to ramble...

[In-Tech]

pm sent with shipping address.

[Moofus02]

Guy here in Michigan has one of those. 6 with a 3 on tree. He swapped the 6 for a really healthy 327. I don't remember his times but with slicks he carries the fronts through second. Fun watching him row a column shifter

[AzDon]

My 66 short GMC van did 17 flat in the quarter with six, three-speed stick and one barrel carb!.....These vans are a very stout but lightweight unibody with boxed sheet-metal frame rails spot welded to the bottom....
Dodge and Chevy vans were available in 90 and 108 inch wheelbases with the Econoline Fords all being 90 inch...
Stock configuration has the balancer over the front axle, but with some fab work you can put the engine anywhere you like... There are even some with the engine out back and running a v-drive....Mine has an 18 inch setback...

[AzDon]

So, slightly different test today....
From cold, I idled the engine in gear about 20 minutes to reach 190 where the fan comes on and cools to 174 in about three minutes when the fan shuts off... another two minutes and it continues down to 169 and starts climbing again....
At this point I brought the rpm up to 1500 in gear against the brakes and it got back to 190 in about 4 minutes and another 5 minutes to 220 at which time I let it go back to idle and it kept rising to 228 over the next 4 minutes and didn't drop at all in ten minutes and then to 220 in another 10 after I put it in neutral.... After that, it never dropped any temp as long as it ran.... The fan is on automatically above 190....
What I'm taking from this is that I'm short on cooling capacity and even though I intend to flush the system and try again, I believe that I'll get no improvement until I add overall cooling core capacity......
I'm still not certain if pulling back the timing mechanically (unlinked) is honored or ignored by the ECM when it is re-linked.....

[stew86MCSS396]

The water pump is AC Delco 88926233 ordered for 91 Caprice (serpentine reverse rotation)....
The ECM is 16136965 with a four letter code of AYDM
I haven't pulled the cover to look at the chip yet.....
The two episodes of building heat were during test drives around the neighborhood which is easy driving under 35 mph.....Next I will try just starting it and allowing it to idle....
Driving it would also put transmission heat on the radiator....
I forgot to mention that I do have a remote oil cooler mounted away from and completely divorced from the radiator.....
I think I'll check everything with an infrared thermometer and I might try knocking the timing back a couple of degrees....
You already knew where I was going with this...


No thermostat will do that. Water passes so fast it can't transfer the heat. If you don't want a thermostat gut the center out of one for a restriction. That should fix the issue
I used to argue that point on other forums but there's been a lot of convincing argument that supports moving the coolant quicker through the passages only aids in cooling.

Have you verified coolant flow and make sure you don't have any collapsing radiator hoses.

I did check out your AWESOME build thread int post #14 to maybe get a clue...thinking perhaps the way the radiator sits in the van, it looks like the incoming air from the grill could possibly go around the radiator and not through it...but now you're saying this is happening while sitting there at idle???

Yeah as it was already discussed^^^if you're sitting there at idle 17 degrees that's what the PCM is adding to your initial of 0. Change the initial to 2 degrees, your datalog would report 17 but with the 2 degree initial it would actually be 19.

[AzDon]

The entire drivetrain and ECM came out of a wagon that was identical to my daily driver that was crashed but drivable and it didn't overheat..... I run my daily driver with a gutted thermostat here in 115 degree weather and a locked fan clutch blowing ice cubes from the A/C and it rarely runs above 160 degrees....This has not been the first vehicle I have anecdotally proven cooler running without the t-stat, but it is the first with fuel injection....

I'm dreadfully old-school, so I can only see timing with a timing light, but I do have one that I can advance...I'll try knocking back the timing a couple of degrees and a good flush before pursuing extra coolers, but I think that's where this is going...
UPDATE:
So without disconnecting the base timing plug I timed the 17 degrees back to 11 degrees (Taking it to eleven!... Spinal Tap reference)
I also hooked a couple of ball valves and garden hoses into the heater hose system and flushed several times during and between about six heating cycles...The water runs clear, but it doesn't appear that either of these chores has changed anything...
I have a 30 stacked plate trans cooler ( 10"x10") ordered that I will put an electric fan on and I'm also going to order two heater cores (6x8 each) to add extra coolant/cooling capacity.... There is tons of space underneath for as many heater cores as it takes to get a large enough percentage of the coolant outside of the engine being cooled...

[tayto]

stop bringing the RPM up with the transmission in gear and brake applied. this is VERY hard on the transmission. you should not do this for more than a few seconds as oil temp will skyrocket. i use a spill free kit when bleeding to check for bubbles. your post is confusing do you have an electric fan or clutch fan or both? i have never used but have not heard good things about the chinese alunminum rads from my local radiator guy. mainly longevity and that they leak. next step might be pulling rad and getting it flow tested. after basics like air flow through rad, fan rotation (check belt routing you can make the fan/pump run backwards!), is the pump pumping and trapped air it is a classic symptom of bad headgasket.

as far as timing goes, if this is a stock engine & ecm, set the timing to 0* with EST disconnected and leave it alone. your issue is not timing...

EDIT: If it were mine I would get the original rad recore'd or find the correct rad for it. also a clutch fan will cool better than an electric fan, full stop.

[AzDon]

The radiator is mounted 18" ahead of the engine and lower with a shrouded stock electric fan from an 85 z28... I have a 32lb cap on the radiator and a 16lb cap on the t-stat housing fill.......I also have an unshrouded GM 7-blade fan mounted to the water pump with a locked fan clutch to help move air through the box.... Both fans are in the correct orientation to move air rearward...
The water pump is also the correct unit for serpentine...
I fully agree with you regarding belt driven fans moving more air.....The factory seven blade fans have the power to blow the hood off if you lock the fan clutch....
I was not aware that pulling against the brakes was any harder on the trans than driving.... thanks for the warning!

[Fast355]

The radiator is mounted 18" ahead of the engine and lower with a shrouded stock electric fan from an 85 z28... I have a 32lb cap on the radiator and a 16lb cap on the t-stat housing fill.......I also have an unshrouded GM 7-blade fan mounted to the water pump with a locked fan clutch to help move air through the box.... Both fans are in the correct orientation to move air rearward...
The water pump is also the correct unit for serpentine...
I fully agree with you regarding belt driven fans moving more air.....The factory seven blade fans have the power to blow the hood off if you lock the fan clutch....
I was not aware that pulling against the brakes was any harder on the trans than driving.... thanks for the warning!

You are using the converter as a load absorber at that point, superheating the fluid in it.

[AzDon]

I didn't realize that I was causing more heat than driving it around......
I did the flush, retarded timing 6 degrees, and locked fan clutch since last driving it around......
The initial timing is at 11 degrees with the EST connected (likely 6ATDC unplugged)
So I guess it's time for another test drive...