PCM 16196396 Range selector 4L60E?

[Rob 689]

I have 16196396 PCM swapped into a 350 manual set up.

Does anyone out there know how the range selector works and what pins i need to ground or supply voltage to in order to get the pcm to think its in the right gear?

Right now with all the range selector inputs open when i plug the laptop in it says its in 2nd gear. I need to make it think its in drive for the manual set up correct? Or do i want it to say nuetral?

[tayto]

start with a manual calibration

[In-Tech]

Hi Rob,
I don't follow all of the posts so I am not sure what you are doing. I was under the impression you had converted to the red/blue 7427 style computer.
If you have, and don't have a 4l60e then the PRDNL switch doesn't matter, just adjust the tables for in gear stuff cuz it doesn't know which gear you are in. If you are capable of letting the red/blue 'puter know if you are in gear or not, the idle transition quality can get much better, also the ac on/off too.

[Rob 689]

Hi Rob,
I don't follow all of the posts so I am not sure what you are doing. I was under the impression you had converted to the red/blue 7427 style computer.
If you have, and don't have a 4l60e then the PRDNL switch doesn't matter, just adjust the tables for in gear stuff cuz it doesn't know which gear you are in. If you are capable of letting the red/blue 'puter know if you are in gear or not, the idle transition quality can get much better, also the ac on/off too.

Yes correct i have converted to the red blue style computer. And yes it is in a manual. The one specifically is the 16196395 PCM

I thought the PRNDL had to be either in drive or neutral?

If all i gotta do is adjust the in gear tables could you point me in the right direction as to what i need to be adjusting? Im a quick learner and this kinda stuff is right up my alley this is just the first time ive ever done anything with tuning and im still learning how the dam thing even operates and what everything in the code means.

And you say letting it know if its in gear or not for idle transition quality? Like make it think its in drive 100% of the time? I noticed the old computer that was factory equipment in my truck when data logging before the swap it said its in drive 100% of the time and thats from gm like that.

If thats what it needs eventually for smoother better operation i might as well get it right now.

How would i go about telling it its in gear?

It currently says 2nd gear when i hook up to it with the laptop and key on engine off. I also cant get it to start it backfires out the intake for some reason.

[Rob 689]

start with a manual calibration

I got a what im told is a manual calibration from In-Tech out of another thread already

There are no factory calibrations for this computer and a 350 with a manual. This computer only came with manual in the 7.4L big block

[Fast355]

I got a what im told is a manual calibration from In-Tech out of another thread already

There are no factory calibrations for this computer and a 350 with a manual. This computer only came with manual in the 7.4L big block


It came with a 4.3L/Manual too. The V6 file is easier to convert to a 350 file than the 454 one.

[In-Tech]

Shoot Rob, I gotta look back at my file. That was a 350. I did that over at Whipple's yeeeeeeeears ago and it's sticking in my mind now that it could have had a 454 TB and injectors causing your lean condition. I gotta look back at it. I am headed to the dyno to tune a 73 Caddy 500in carbed thingy this morning so I'll look tonight when I get home. Please post all the specs for your combination and I'll rig up a file for you tonight as a decent starting point. I believe from memory, if the prndl switch is unplugged or not there, it will show "in gear" 100% of the time.

[1project2many]

"500in carbed thingy"

Have fun doing archaeological research!

[In-Tech]

Hiya Rob,
That other file was for a whipplecharged 350 and it had a cam in it along with police injectors. This new file is for a stock 350, stock throttle body, stock fuel pressure.

[Rob 689]

It came with a 4.3L/Manual too. The V6 file is easier to convert to a 350 file than the 454 one.

Good to know, i never ever would have guessed.

[Rob 689]

Hiya Rob,
That other file was for a whipplecharged 350 and it had a cam in it along with police injectors. This new file is for a stock 350, stock throttle body, stock fuel pressure.

Ahhh makes sense. Thank you for the help. Ill try it now booting up the laptop now (typing this on my phone)

As for the specs of my build as far as i know the truck is original 94 gmc k1500 5.7 manual 4wd. I installed headers and built an exhaust on the truck. And now installed a wideband and the new PCM. Ill include a picture of the RPO codes sticker just in case.

[Rob 689]

Hmmm still not working. Back fired clearly out the tail pipe this time. Got a fire ball out the throttle body the other time. I think there’s something wrong with my swap i need to back and double check everything, again.. Frustrating

[Rob 689]

Unless anyones got any ideas?

[Rob 689]

Hey so sorry guys it was my fault why it wouldnt run. Long story short i had the engine harness off and back on and in the process i had re installed the plug wires by memory and didnt look anything up and I accidentally went around the distributor counter clockwise wise i stead of clockwise by accident…. So stupid.. thank you for the file carl it works. I need to do dome tuning to dile it in but it fired and revved this morning before work so yeah… ugh i feel so dumb just glad i found it and can move on with the project thanks so much everybody.

[In-Tech]

:thumbsup:

[Rob 689]

So my map sensor isnt reading. Could that be in the bin?

also im not able to view the blm data or af least i cant find it now in the new mask i was on $9A before the pcm swap so yeah huge difference lol

[Rob 689]

I also have no history tables. ?

[tayto]

I don't understand pcm swapping when you can't even get a relatively stock engine to run on it's original ECM. you're really making things harder than they need to be. Like I said a few weeks ago in one of your other threads you need to get your mechanical problems fixed before you start tuning. Map sensor not working? have you done basic checks with a wiring diagram and multimeter? are you even using the right xdf for the PCM you are using?

[Rob 689]

I don't understand pcm swapping when you can't even get a relatively stock engine to run on it's original ECM. you're really making things harder than they need to be. Like I said a few weeks ago in one of your other threads you need to get your mechanical problems fixed before you start tuning. Map sensor not working? have you done basic checks with a wiring diagram and multimeter? are you even using the right xdf for the PCM you are using?

Alright guy you need to fuck off I already told you there are no “mechanical” issues with the truck. I dont know how you can even post on a forum when you dont even know how to fucking read. Read this thread specifically ive already poured through the truck with a wire diagram errors happen its life. As it turns out the map sensor was an error with my laptop for whatever reason i had to re open the definition file for the data acquisition and it works fantastic truck is running great now. My bad for jumping to the forum hoping for an answer a little patience on my end would have been good. Stop trash talking my build you cant diagnose a vehicle that your not even present in front of.

im not trying to be an ass but seriously your being negative as fuck your just following me around on the forum bad talking my build saying it’s injectors or my throttle body rebuild/injector cleaning method is wrong.

You do realize not even tuner shops fuck with this shit right? Only three tuner shops in the nation that even play with tuning and burning chips for a stock gm pcm let alone swapping like this. I would think tuner shops are far more extensively expensive than i or you for that matter. This shit isnt easy stop harassing me every time when my build has a hickup.

[Rob 689]

I don't understand pcm swapping when you can't even get a relatively stock engine to run on it's original ECM. you're really making things harder than they need to be. Like I said a few weeks ago in one of your other threads you need to get your mechanical problems fixed before you start tuning. Map sensor not working? have you done basic checks with a wiring diagram and multimeter? are you even using the right xdf for the PCM you are using?

Also what the fuck are you talking about not getting a “relatively stock motor to run on its original ecm” Do you realize your talking out your fucking ass? The truck was running. It ran fucking fantastic. Before I swapped the ecm i did tune a little bit not alot on the old computer and i was able to keep up with my 2012 silverado off the line up to about 50 then it walked. Auto 6 speed LS motor with very low miles. 20 year difference in the trucks. 200,000 on my 94 and only 80,000 miles on the silverado. Sounds pretty fucking healthy to me. Oh yeah and my clutch is worn i need to hurry up and replace it it likes to slip just a hair under a hard launch. The truck did run. Learn how to read guy. “I don’t understand pcm swapping when you cant even…” bla bla bla. I cabt understand trash talking when you cant even read what your trash talking about.

Your a fucking internet troll get a life you cant have mine.

[tayto]

plug wires in the wrong spot is a mechanical problem. no amount of pcm swapping or tuning will fix it.

[Rob 689]

plug wires in the wrong spot is a mechanical problem. no amount of pcm swapping or tuning will fix it.

Are you kidding me. Your obviously not a mechanic if youve never had a simple fuck up like that on a big project. It happens to the best of people.

your the only one bothered by this

and your implying that you believe i swapped the pcm to fix a plug wire problem? The plugs wires happened during the swap. Again learn how to fucking read.

[In-Tech]

Not my business... tayto has been very helpful to a lot of people. Some times typing can come across wrong. Take all of it with a grain of salt. I am glad to hear you are well on your way to a happier tune.

[Rob 689]

I do apologize to everyone in the thread for my language. Sometimes i react a bit quickly and rash

[Rob 689]

Yeah tayto was saying something about some async vs sync fueling and i did go do a crap ton of reading on the subject it was helpful. I dont mean to overshadow everything with a sour temperament. And funny enough my injectors did just start making audible noise recently. You can hear inside the cab now just so slightly. The spray pattern is still looking decentish. The truck is running super rich now too. Haven’t gotten a chance to play with it yet as i fried my wbo2 trying to start it with the plug wires fucked i flooded the sensor obviously. Have a new factory narrow band in hand its the better 3 wire one and i got a spar harness with the plug on it i can use so itll look original. Also i think ill be buying injectors now.

I apologize for getting irritated but the truck is in no way anywhere even near not in good running order. I bought the truck from a young kid who clearly wasnt nice to trucks and judging by the rest in his yard and the one he was driving he fidnt have this one long cus it wasnt totally fucked yet but i still had alot of work to bring it back. I pretty mych saved the truck from this kid. I have crawled through this truck time and time over againi know every bolt damn near.

The truck now aside from the cab corners being rusty the truck is in fantastic condition and im constantly replacing shit pre emptively now ive finally gotten ahead of it. The injectors arent showing any symptoms aside from the recent noisy pintle operation loud clicking. Very audible. The cleaning was inly temporary theyre fucked but i just hadnt gotten that far. Ive only got one oil change in her not many miles on the truck by me. The truck is nice and i do not meglect things. Now that symptoms are returning i do know the injectors are in fact dying. I felt like i was being hounded about it tho and they were working fine at the time so yeah i do apologize but like at least see where i was coming from

[Rob 689]

The noise isnt all the time tho. Barely did it but was audible but then it disappeared again. Actually first noticed last night then this morning nothing. Truck is parked waiting on sensors anyways

[tayto]

i am not shitting on your project. i have been messing around with GM fuel injection since I was 17, did my first TBI swap when I was 19 into a 64 Impala that I had pulled out of a field when I was in high school. I worked as an automotive mechanic out of high school, then went and did aircraft mechanics until the recession near the end of 2009 and have been an elevator mechanic since 2011. not dick measuring just sharing my background. i information slurped on the gmefi mailing list for years until it went defunct and read thirdgen.org back in its hayday. i post here to try and share/pass down knowledge i have gotten From the net. this is the first time i have been called a "troll". ever. i do not have a lot of time to type essays so i try to keep posts short and too the point. if you take it as harsh then so be it. i am not a fan when people don't even try to figure out a problem and post on a forum demanding instant help. I usually put in about as much effort into helping them as they have tried solving thwir only problem, remember we are all doing this FOR FREE. i have been where you have, attemping a pcm swap and then pullin my hair out for weeks only to swap back to the original ecm and have things back to normal. then eventually changing my approach/method once i gained more experience and knowledge. i have chased
my tail on problems that were bad injectors and tried all sorts of solutions to clean injectors, i even have my own ultrasonic cleaner that I use for carburetors. i bought a device that will pulse the injectors, while this works the best i have found is getting them professionally cleaned, they have an ultrasonic cleaner that will destroy tin foil. they also flow the injectors before and after, I have had sets done where there is as much as 15% difference! i rebuild about half a dozen or more tbi units per year, all by word of mouth. i rebush the throttle shaft, clean and sometimes bead blast the throttle body if needed. i also offer a "warranty” only if the injectors are cleaned professionally. usually those that come back are happy after injectors have been cleaned and flowed. have had better luck with cleaning oem injectors vs buying "new" aftermarket. YMMV

[Rob 689]

i am not shitting on your project. i have been messing around with GM fuel injection since I was 17, did my first TBI swap when I was 19 into a 64 Impala that I had pulled out of a field when I was in high school. I worked as an automotive mechanic out of high school, then went and did aircraft mechanics until the recession near the end of 2009 and have been an elevator mechanic since 2011. not dick measuring just sharing my background. i information slurped on the gmefi mailing list for years until it went defunct and read thirdgen.org back in its hayday. i post here to try and share/pass down knowledge i have gotten From the net. this is the first time i have been called a "troll". ever. i do not have a lot of time to type essays so i try to keep posts short and too the point. if you take it as harsh then so be it. i am not a fan when people don't even try to figure out a problem and post on a forum demanding instant help. I usually put in about as much effort into helping them as they have tried solving thwir only problem, remember we are all doing this FOR FREE. i have been where you have, attemping a pcm swap and then pullin my hair out for weeks only to swap back to the original ecm and have things back to normal. then eventually changing my approach/method once i gained more experience and knowledge. i have chased
my tail on problems that were bad injectors and tried all sorts of solutions to clean injectors, i even have my own ultrasonic cleaner that I use for carburetors. i bought a device that will pulse the injectors, while this works the best i have found is getting them professionally cleaned, they have an ultrasonic cleaner that will destroy tin foil. they also flow the injectors before and after, I have had sets done where there is as much as 15% difference! i rebuild about half a dozen or more tbi units per year, all by word of mouth. i rebush the throttle shaft, clean and sometimes bead blast the throttle body if needed. i also offer a "warranty” only if the injectors are cleaned professionally. usually those that come back are happy after injectors have been cleaned and flowed. have had better luck with cleaning oem injectors vs buying "new" aftermarket. YMMV

I do appreciate the knowledge and i dont mean to take away from that i was frustrated and i do apologize. Trust me there is no lack of effort to fix mechanical issues as they arise. The truck barely ran when i got it due to vacuum leaks and piss poor exhaust system and a few other things. I extracted like 5 broken manifold bolts from this kid i bought it from. the cat plugged and he removed an exhaust donut. Luckily it seems he didnt have it for long it would have ended up a parts rig. The truck is fairly clean too.

Question....

Can these injectors be noisy but still be okay? I know they all make some noise during operation but is noise enough to write them off? like is it worth having them proffesionally cleaned if they might just say theyre F****D anyways?

Any way i can make my own bench test rig??

I do have another set of aftermarket injectors off of the parts rig but they leaked on the bench with my hacked cleaning set up. The ones in my truck now are its originals stamped gm.

Any recomendations for where to send them out to new ones are pretty dang expensive. Should i just buy ac delco replacements? I cleaned them my self on the bench and the noise did go away for quite a while but is coming back i drove it some more today after i did the heated narrow band upgrade with the later year factory 3 wire o2

still waiting on my narrow band replacement.

as far as back ground goes i went through the GM ASEP program at my local college back in class of 2014 when i was 18/19 and ive been wrenching ever since. Ive always been mechanically inclined as far as i can remember. Ive worked as a mechanic ever since schooling as well with the exception of the last four years or so i was doing construction for a bit and wrenching by word of mouth in my garage and also flipping craigslist rigs for extra cash and chopping parts here and there. I am now back working on rigs again i dont like doing anything else and im good at it.

[Rob 689]

Also on a side note never did i start tuning or pcm swapping as a solution to any problems. I plan on building the truck and eventually boosting it with a cheap turbo and ill build the exhaust myself. budget build to a point and i would like to use as many factory parts as possible for ease of servicing the truck in the future oem parts are way more readily available than aftermarket.

Any problems ive had that i posted about were encountered during my modifications. I think the truck may have a mild cam upgrade in it already but i really dont know. Im not tuning because i think it needs it either it runs fine in stock form but i want to get my feet wet and be ready for when the serious mods come into play. the kid i bought it from did keep saying something about more power than most and he thought it had a cam too. Doesnt really matter tho cus the data log dictates what changes get made so itll be right in the end regardless.

[Rob 689]

I also have a donor motor with 130,xxx miles on it and a set of reman vortec heads and i just got my hands on a dial bore gauge set that shiny and new. My plan is to continue with supporting mods as i piece together the parts that i need to finish the motor and then when i put it in it should just be basically spread sheet tuning and probably play with the timing? I dont see any need to play with timing yet on a pretty much stock motor right?

The truck does have headers already and all the sensors are all in solid working order ive checked everything with a multi meter and i have 3 semesters worth of automotive electrical from the gm asep program. The fuel sender is brand new and i rebuilt the throttle body and you already know my injector situation and i have the AEM eugo wide band gauge just waiting on the replacement o2 sensor to come in the mail since i completely fried mine. had both that and the narrow band out last night and they were blacker than the dickens so yeah. also only like 2 runs on them lol sucks but lessons arent cheap lol.

another question, those youtube videos where people take dremel tools to the throttle body and shave down those little swirl ridges and smooth everything out to like sort of port the thing. is that a good idea im scared to try it. I do have another throttle body unit but i discovered the hard way why you dont want to remove the throttle blade screws that go into the throttle shaft. one is snapped off on one of the blades so i do have a back up but it needs repaired.

[Rob 689]

Also does anyone have the link to the BLM tuning spreadsheet i cant find it again. at least i can play around while i wait for the wideband sensor to get here and get the injectors sorted i do daily the truck.

[ralmo94]

Also does anyone have the link to the BLM tuning spreadsheet i cant find it again. at least i can play around while i wait for the wideband sensor to get here and get the injectors sorted i do daily the truck.

Have you ever played with Steveo's trimalyzer? It's pretty cool, and I think a little easier than using a spreadsheet.

http://ecmhack.com/trimalyzer/

[Rob 689]

Have you ever played with Steveo's trimalyzer? It's pretty cool, and I think a little easier than using a spreadsheet.

http://ecmhack.com/trimalyzer/

never even heard of it. thanks

[ralmo94]

I made a how to post on how to use it open loop with a wide band
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?10776-Files-Included-How-To-VE-Tuneing-OPEN-LOOP-with-WIDEBAND

[Rob 689]

I made a how to post on how to use it open loop with a wide band
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?10776-Files-Included-How-To-VE-Tuneing-OPEN-LOOP-with-WIDEBAND

So all this time that ive been reading about importing .csv files i had just assumed that tunerproRT outputs the data logs in csv format but i just looked and its like xdl or whatever. how do i convert to csv?

[Rob 689]

I made a how to post on how to use it open loop with a wide band
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?10776-Files-Included-How-To-VE-Tuneing-OPEN-LOOP-with-WIDEBAND

Is this for those who tune only in open loop and never intend to even operate in closed loop? Or do you use this to tune the PE fueling?

Or is it important to also tune the open loop fueling for warm up? im new to tuning and currently practicing on a basically stock motor. has headers and egr delete. supposedly has a mild cam the seller told me but i dont think even he knew for sure but idk.

[ralmo94]

Stevo intended it for blm tuning. I manipulated the data log to show wide band like a fuel trim, so the same functions of trimalyzer work while open loop. These older systems are a little slow to adjust themselves if the tune is very far off. If you own a wide band it's quite quick to go open loop to dial it in. You can also filter your loggs to only show when PE is active and edit your PE ratio accordingly. And when tuning your VE, you can leave PE decel and AE on, and just filter it out in trimalyzer. Once you're ve is close you can go back to closed loop
If you don't have a wide band it will work fine with blm

[ralmo94]

So all this time that ive been reading about importing .csv files i had just assumed that tunerproRT outputs the data logs in csv format but i just looked and its like xdl or whatever. how do i convert to csv?

If you read my how to it goes over that with pictures

If you download the readme file, it says basically the same thing but has the screenshots right along with each step

[ralmo94]

When you are done driving and ready to make adjustments, you need to export your log file to CSV file.

Click "Acqusition > Export Log File"

Make sure the correct log file is selected, then click "Export"

You will then be propted to create a file name for the new file. You should not name it exactly the same as the original log file, at least 1 charector should be different. If its exactly the same, you don't get a useable file.
Once named, click save.
a progress bar should be visible at the bottom of the screen, if you have a fast computer, or not a verry long log, you might not even see it.
Once complete, you can either export another file or click cancel to close the exporter dialog
Here I copied it for you

[Rob 689]

Stevo intended it for blm tuning. I manipulated the data log to show wide band like a fuel trim, so the same functions of trimalyzer work while open loop. These older systems are a little slow to adjust themselves if the tune is very far off. If you own a wide band it's quite quick to go open loop to dial it in. You can also filter your loggs to only show when PE is active and edit your PE ratio accordingly. And when tuning your VE, you can leave PE decel and AE on, and just filter it out in trimalyzer. Once you're ve is close you can go back to closed loop
If you don't have a wide band it will work fine with blm

Ahh i see so rough tuning basically. I do have a wide band sensor is fried tho and im waiting on a new sensor in the mail. thank you for the info.

[ralmo94]

It works well for fine tuning also! If you're real far off though it's quicker to go open loop. If you use blms, you have to be sure and reset your trims each tune. One of my favorite things about it is you can combine lots of loggs and get an idea of how you are running over a longer period of time. You can just drive like normal filter out idle flag, then go back and filter only idle flag, and get your idle ve and main ve dialed in.

[Rob 689]

It works well for fine tuning also! If you're real far off though it's quicker to go open loop. If you use blms, you have to be sure and reset your trims each tune. One of my favorite things about it is you can combine lots of loggs and get an idea of how you are running over a longer period of time. You can just drive like normal filter out idle flag, then go back and filter only idle flag, and get your idle ve and main ve dialed in.

Nice. It does seem like a clean program it’s definitely easy to use. Their website claims its some new fangled bad assness. How accurate is it in your use? Can it do wbo2 closed loop?

[Rob 689]

Also im confused as to why my blms were all over the place on the old computer and now theyre rock solid on a factory fuel map with the new pcm?? Like is the new one that much better? I also fried my o2 sensors with fuel trying to start it after the swap. I replaced my narrow band single wire with the three wire heated sensor. I do have headers. But i did also manage to tune it out on the old one by adjusting the ve table i was doing the (blm/128)*fuel map cell formula but i had to do it every cell individually. Thats why i upgraded for easier tuning and wide babd input. But now it doeant need it.

What im trying to ask i guess is this. Is the new pcm really just that much better or is it the o2 sensor upgrade with the headers thats more likely responsible?

[Rob 689]

I did go through the parameter and found that the blm max and min were set to 126 and 128 and a few other settings that seemed to limit it. I changed it but how do i be sure its not that. Im still waiting on my wbo2 sensor.


Also how do you reset the fuel trims between changes? Pull battery cable right?

[ralmo94]

If you want to run closed loop, you should look at a stock unmodified bin more minimum and maximum.

You are supposed to be able to reset fuel trims with a command from the aldl, but I never could find enough information on it for to follow so I unhook the battery.
I actually find trimalyzer more accurate than commercial products. I use it on OBD2 also. The more information you have the better picture you can get of how the engine is running on an average. That's why I think it's important to be able to combine logs. A couple bad samples don't cause you to make a mistake that way.

It can read off your wide band in closed loop as well, if you choose arbitrary input it will display what the average AFR is if you select the wbO2 form your main trim. If closed loop though all this does is tell you how Accurate your fuel trims are.

[tayto]

i get mine done locally, about $120 Canadian. I would checkout https://www.witchhunter.com/ i dealt with them years ago before a local place got a flow machine. i agree with ralmo, get it running
right in open loop then move on to closed loop. if you have a cat, i usually run a cat delete pipe until you get fuel table sorted out, then reinstall once closed loop. this is cheaper than burning a cat out IMO.

[Rob 689]

If you want to run closed loop, you should look at a stock unmodified bin more minimum and maximum.

You are supposed to be able to reset fuel trims with a command from the aldl, but I never could find enough information on it for to follow so I unhook the battery.
I actually find trimalyzer more accurate than commercial products. I use it on OBD2 also. The more information you have the better picture you can get of how the engine is running on an average. That's why I think it's important to be able to combine logs. A couple bad samples don't cause you to make a mistake that way.

It can read off your wide band in closed loop as well, if you choose arbitrary input it will display what the average AFR is if you select the wbO2 form your main trim. If closed loop though all this does is tell you how Accurate your fuel trims are.

Oh okay. Thank you for the info. I played around yesterday on just the blm and im concerned about my injectors and i pulled a ride on lawn mower on a small utility trailer and the truck aint ready. I need the wideband thats in transit in the mail too.

In the mean time any idea were to even start with the timing parameters and the timing tables. Gets alot of knock counts and goes into knock retard with barely any throttle when pulling that small trailer and still does without while under light to medium load like getting on the highway but once your there it’s kinda okay but itll still do it you try to pass someone

[Rob 689]

i get mine done locally, about $120 Canadian. I would checkout https://www.witchhunter.com/ i dealt with them years ago before a local place got a flow machine. i agree with ralmo, get it running
right in open loop then move on to closed loop. if you have a cat, i usually run a cat delete pipe until you get fuel table sorted out, then reinstall once closed loop. this is cheaper than burning a cat out IMO.

Okay thank you. So i thought adjusting the ve tables while in closed loop till the blms dont adjust anymore would make open loop also be right? Im probably mistaken right? So is it always desirable to get open loop dialed in? How do you differentiate in the bin? Like wont i just be un doing my open loop work if i start there and then keep tuning in closed loop? For some reason my blms are stuck between 126 and 128 and idk why but it seems to be not far off it is pretty much a stock motor if it does have anything in it as far as a cam its not much

[ralmo94]

For timing usually you should keep it at stock or a little less Maybe 2 deg, until you get your VE closer. Any knock can throw off your samples, as can over advanced timing without knock. Once you get ve dialed in, then you can work on timing, then you fine tune your VE with the new table. Unless you have vortec heads swapped on, then you can use a stock vortec timing map.

Also be advised that unless you have configured your tune for open loop, you can't just edit according to afr, as the target afr for open loop is not all the same. And also I had issues when I went open loop with blms coming back. These issues I solved, and that's why I posted the files I did in the how to article, so someone else can just easily start with an open loop file.

You can tune with blms, that's what trimalyzer was designed for. I would start with stock bin though, and make sure your injector constant matches your fuel pressure. I don't remember seeing your mods posted, I might have missed it though.

[Rob 689]

For timing usually you should keep it at stock or a little less Maybe 2 deg, until you get your VE closer. Any knock can throw off your samples, as can over advanced timing without knock. Once you get ve dialed in, then you can work on timing, then you fine tune your VE with the new table. Unless you have vortec heads swapped on, then you can use a stock vortec timing map.

Also be advised that unless you have configured your tune for open loop, you can't just edit according to afr, as the target afr for open loop is not all the same. And also I had issues when I went open loop with blms coming back. These issues I solved, and that's why I posted the files I did in the how to article, so someone else can just easily start with an open loop file.

You can tune with blms, that's what trimalyzer was designed for. I would start with stock bin though, and make sure your injector constant matches your fuel pressure. I don't remember seeing your mods posted, I might have missed it though.

As far as i know the motor is stock but im told by the kid i bought it from it had a cam in it idk. I put headers on it and upgraded to the three wire heated o2 sensor. EGR delete and 2 inch y pipe into 3 inch all the way out the behind the axle. Obviously the pcm swap and now im trying to tune that in so itll run right again. I plan on continuing to mod the truck and tune it in again every time its a slow budget build. itll eventually get a fresh stock bottom end with vortecs and a cam. Possibly gonna add a small turbo set up waay down the road but idk if ill ever even take it that far. if the vortecs are good enough. ill probably add an intake after i get this pcm figured out i found one that i can scalp out of a buddys yard thats pre tbi i think? its got what apears to be the same intake bolt pattern so i think itll fit. tbi adapter plate and presto.

The bin i have ill post i got it from another member on the forum. I have a manual truck and theres no stock bin files for a small block with a stick not ones compatible with this computer anyways. Thats why its wonky in the first place i dont think the file is completely stock. He did give me two files, the first never worked cus i goofed the plug wires during the swap when i was getting into the harness. I did it by memory late one night and accidentally went around the distrubutor backwards then pulled my hair out backtracking my steps thinking it was the pcm swap until it woke me up one night when i realized it in my sleep somehow lol. anyways i never tried the other file after it ran.

Do you have a stock 350 file for a manual? or can someone just tell me how to make an auto file a manual file i pulled the file off the original memcal from the pcm that ran the original truck it was in which was a 94 suburban k1500 and my truck is a 94 pickup k1500 both 350 tbis. theoretically i should be able to just convert the original bin and just run that till i get more mods. that would probably be the easiest and cleanest way to do it. i just dont know what im doing entirely in the bin yet. im learning more and more every time i mess with it and im covering ground decently but im just not all the way learned up yet lol ive never tuned anything or done anything this deep yet. Im a mechanic and ive messed with hopped up carbed shit but now i want to do my own efi.

I am assuming that it takes more than just checking a few flags right? although i just looked through the original suburban bin and it seems that it has shift light tables so it should actually work fine right? maybe some iac adjustment? maybe that route would be easier? maybe i should just try it?

[Rob 689]

titles of files should be self explanatory. Feel free to ask for clarification.

[Rob 689]

tuner pro files i am using. Also thanks a ton in advance to anyone who helps out. And thanks a ton to everyone so far its great to have some helpful knowledge along and experience along the way in the build.



crap almost forgot the suburban bin is in $0E not $0D

[Rob 689]

For timing usually you should keep it at stock or a little less Maybe 2 deg, until you get your VE closer. Any knock can throw off your samples, as can over advanced timing without knock. Once you get ve dialed in, then you can work on timing, then you fine tune your VE with the new table. Unless you have vortec heads swapped on, then you can use a stock vortec timing map.

Also be advised that unless you have configured your tune for open loop, you can't just edit according to afr, as the target afr for open loop is not all the same. And also I had issues when I went open loop with blms coming back. These issues I solved, and that's why I posted the files I did in the how to article, so someone else can just easily start with an open loop file.

You can tune with blms, that's what trimalyzer was designed for. I would start with stock bin though, and make sure your injector constant matches your fuel pressure. I don't remember seeing your mods posted, I might have missed it though.

What makes a bin configured for open loop?

[ralmo94]

There was a lot of things I changed for open loop to work correctly, min max temps blm update, ect.
I have an $od file modded for manual around some where. You should be able to run either $od or $OE Are you running stock fuel pressure? 12psi. That should be addressed before going in to the ve. O'Reilly's has a fuel pressure gauge you can borrow with a deposit that screws inline at the TBi.

[ralmo94]

Also while I'm thinking about it, where did you put the sensor grounds? Not on the thermostat housing I hope.
3 wire O2 is great the heater helps. But it grounds through the exhaust system, a 4 wire can be tied right to the pcm pin for O2 low.

Also parts store O2 sensor are widely reported to be either lean or rich, Bosch has the worst reputation for this. There is a very old thread on here about this. You Could be better of getting one out of a low mileage car at the yard, once you have the wideband you can confirm.

[Rob 689]

Also while I'm thinking about it, where did you put the sensor grounds? Not on the thermostat housing I hope.
3 wire O2 is great the heater helps. But it grounds through the exhaust system, a 4 wire can be tied right to the pcm pin for O2 low.

Also parts store O2 sensor are widely reported to be either lean or rich, Bosch has the worst reputation for this. There is a very old thread on here about this. You Could be better of getting one out of a low mileage car at the yard, once you have the wideband you can confirm.


I dont see why grounding on the thermostat housing would be a problem the factory thought it was good enough for the ecm. I used the original single wire plug and i cut the other end off the old o2 and i used some two terminal plugs out of a harness laying around to run the heater circuit and i powered it off the old power and ground left over from removing the esc during the pcm swap. so now the sensor has plugs and everything and loomed wire and looks OE.

Also interesting. i did install a bosch sensor.... bosh also makes the wideband sensors too tho so are those no good too? Ill look for the thread.

[Rob 689]

There was a lot of things I changed for open loop to work correctly, min max temps blm update, ect.
I have an $od file modded for manual around some where. You should be able to run either $od or $OE Are you running stock fuel pressure? 12psi. That should be addressed before going in to the ve. O'Reilly's has a fuel pressure gauge you can borrow with a deposit that screws inline at the TBi.

I have all the fuel guages already. my pressure is 13.5 last time i checked but i did just drop in a brand new pump and sender assembly as my sender was rusty and sprung a pin hole leak in the hard line on the feed side. So i should check it again i probably will this weekend its got a flat bed that needs re decked this weekend.

I appreciate the help with the file.

How complicated is it to convert an auto file to a manual one?

[ralmo94]

The factory did ground on the thermostat, but some vehicles that had issues got bought back under a buy back program, and that was one of the things that got changed. Electrically speaking that is one of the worst places to have a sensor lo signal. Should be grounded on either the block or the head to get a good clean signal. Your Bosch might be good or might not. Only way to tell is when the integrator or stft, is satisfied with making almost no adjustments what the afr is. Bosch aftermarket narrow band seem to have the worst reputation that I have read on numerous forums, but that doesn't mean they are all bad.


There were lots and lots of things changed to make that bin manual. Difficult.... I wouldn't say that, time consuming yes.
If you download the stock file and load in in the compare bin on tuner pro you can click tools > difference finder and see how many things are changed from stock.

[ralmo94]

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?395-1227747-TBI-BPW-Calculator

[Rob 689]

The factory did ground on the thermostat, but some vehicles that had issues got bought back under a buy back program, and that was one of the things that got changed. Electrically speaking that is one of the worst places to have a sensor lo signal. Should be grounded on either the block or the head to get a good clean signal. Your Bosch might be good or might not. Only way to tell is when the integrator or stft, is satisfied with making almost no adjustments what the afr is. Bosch aftermarket narrow band seem to have the worst reputation that I have read on numerous forums, but that doesn't mean they are all bad.


There were lots and lots of things changed to make that bin manual. Difficult.... I wouldn't say that, time consuming yes.
If you download the stock file and load in in the compare bin on tuner pro you can click tools > difference finder and see how many things are changed from stock.

Huh i didnt know that about the buy backs. I suppose your right i did already clean my bolts and bolt holes for those grounds and everything. New eyelets. Every other rig known to man grounds to the heads or block and thats where the ground straps go it is weird now that you point it out.

Nice I didn’t realize tunerpro had that function. I thought you had to manually look at all the tables and everything. I found the spot were yoj load the compare bin and when you go through the parameters it shows but it would be nice to not have to go through every dam one and then close the window click the next etc. lol

[Rob 689]

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?395-1227747-TBI-BPW-Calculator

What even is bpw? Im assuming it stands for base pulse width? Is that even correct?

[ralmo94]

Base Pulse Width. It's what the injector constant is labeled. That's how many lbs per hr your injector flows at full open. That's how the pcm knows how long to open the injector.

[Rob 689]

Base Pulse Width. It's what the injector constant is labeled. That's how many lbs per hr your injector flows at full open. That's how the pcm knows how long to open the injector.

So is it possible to have the scalar for injector flow rate set to one thing but then in the bpw parameters have crap still be turned up? I still havent fixed the min and max blm there must be some setting im missing.

Is it possible for some parameters to ovverride others?

[ralmo94]

Is it possible for some parameters to ovverride others?

Yes certain things can definitely override others.

[Rob 689]

Yes certain things can definitely override others.

I appreciate all the info thank you

[Rob 689]

There was a lot of things I changed for open loop to work correctly, min max temps blm update, ect.
I have an $od file modded for manual around some where. You should be able to run either $od or $OE Are you running stock fuel pressure? 12psi. That should be addressed before going in to the ve. O'Reilly's has a fuel pressure gauge you can borrow with a deposit that screws inline at the TBi.

Any luck finding that file?

[ralmo94]

I thought I PM'ed you a link to download the manual file. Do you want the open loop manual file also?
I have both files, let me know what you need.

[Rob 689]

I thought I PM'ed you a link to download the manual file. Do you want the open loop manual file also?
I have both files, let me know what you need.

Let me figure how to check my messages real quick lol

[ralmo94]

Please report back about how that bin runs after you run it.

I have the OL one on my laptop. Let me know when you are ready for it and I'll get it to you.

[Rob 689]

Please report back about how that bin runs after you run it.

I have the OL one on my laptop. Let me know when you are ready for it and I'll get it to you.

Yeah will do thank you I appreciate it.

[Rob 689]

So yeah the blm is adjusting properly now thank you. Also whenever the knocks occur the blm is like above 135 so that explains that i think. Idles way down at like 105

[Rob 689]

Just got my new wideband sensor in the mail today too so now thats working. I just got to connect the gauge to the pcm input and itll be in the data log. Afr at idle was like 11 too

[ralmo94]

So if you can confirm that the $od manual bin works with no known issues, I'll add it to my how to article. If you tie your 0-5 volt output on the egr position pin you can log AFR and run open loop. Another thing you can do with trimalyzer is filter for idle flag false tune main ve then change idle flag to true and tune idle ve.

[Rob 689]

So if you can confirm that the $od manual bin works with no known issues, I'll add it to my how to article. If you tie your 0-5 volt output on the egr position pin you can log AFR and run open loop. Another thing you can do with trimalyzer is filter for idle flag false tune main ve then change idle flag to true and tune idle ve.

yeah trimalyzer seems to work really easily and smoothly. ill see how it works in the tuning. trimalyzer can use the wide band data to tune in closed loop correct?


Attached is a copy of pretty much the only log file i have so far on the bin besides a short idleing log. I know its not good data i left DFCO on and PE and everything pretty much. i made sure egr was turned off and i loaded it up as is and test drove it and recorded some. so technically it isnt clean data and i was driving somewhat erratically i was checking out how it responded with various throttle input and i didnt have much time so it isnt quite a proper log but if you look at the blm averages its similar to what i was getting originally on the stock prom in the stock ecm which was $9A btw and anyways the bin seems solid it seems to be behaving as it did before i fucked with anything so thats good.

[ralmo94]

Great news.
n
I'm glad that bin preformed as it should. I created that modded bin to help another member on here, but I believe there was some sort of language barrier or something and I never had confirmation that it worked properly. I added manual files on my how to write up.

You can go ahead and download the manual zip from the article. The open loop bin is in that zip, along with an ADX that should log an afr error.

If you read the how to, you can see that I normally leave all that, AE PE Decel, on, and filter it out with trimalyzer.

[ralmo94]

I plugged your logs into trimalyzer and it looks like there is defiantly room for improvement on your ve.

Since you have a wide band now, I highly recommend you follow my how to and use the visibility xdf I included and only change your VE s.

I also strongly reccomend that anytime you make changes to your bin, as soon as you open tuner pro, click on [file] > [save as] and create as new file name for the changes you are about to make. Some use dates in file name, others use changes, such as [ VE 2 ]
This way if you "screw something up" as you put it, you can easily roll back a bin.

[Rob 689]

So if you can confirm that the $od manual bin works with no known issues, I'll add it to my how to article. If you tie your 0-5 volt output on the egr position pin you can log AFR and run open loop. Another thing you can do with trimalyzer is filter for idle flag false tune main ve then change idle flag to true and tune idle ve.

So i do have an issue with the shift light still coming on when im in fifth gear as if i had a 6th gear to go to which isnt an issue but is slightly annoying any idea how to solve that lol.

on a side note i cant seem to get rid of my knock counts entirely and it goes into knock retard alot less now after a VE adjustment but still goes into knock retard sometimes.

[ralmo94]

On the shift light, if you don't need it and want to just get rid of it entirely, you can edit min temp for shift light, set it to max allowed. That should take care of that.
If you want to leave it functional, it may require a little experimentation.

As far as knock goes, if Ve is off it can cause knock, when in trimalyzer, you should filter out for knock retard less than 0.5. If you still get KR after VE is dialed in, it may be false, but I would wait to explore that until trimalyzer says you are between 0 and -5

Also thanks for the update on issues. I appreciate it as I don't have a manual truck to test on.

[Rob 689]

On the shift light, if you don't need it and want to just get rid of it entirely, you can edit min temp for shift light, set it to max allowed. That should take care of that.
If you want to leave it functional, it may require a little experimentation.

As far as knock goes, if Ve is off it can cause knock, when in trimalyzer, you should filter out for knock retard less than 0.5. If you still get KR after VE is dialed in, it may be false, but I would wait to explore that until trimalyzer says you are between 0 and -5

Also thanks for the update on issues. I appreciate it as I don't have a manual truck to test on.

Yeah no problem. Im actually using the wbo2 spreadsheet that i think it was dave that made it, theres a whole thread for it. Same guy that made the blm one. But trimalyzer while it worked and was pretty dang easy to use the spreadsheet is still just copy and paste you just gotta be a little more careful about not messing up the spreadsheet. But wbo2 spreadsheet seems to be have written specifically for these pcms and these alone where as like trimalyzer has some fuel map layouts that dont match presumably for tuning a variety of things a great tool no doubt but the spreadsheet has specific idle and off idle ve table support and has all the correct table layout all the cells line up etc and it seems to actually have some filtering ability too

[Rob 689]

Definitely gonna keep trimalyzer around but im getting my feet wet innthe spreadsheet now. I am trying to make my truck better but i think its more of a giuney pig for me to practice on at this point lol. It ran good enough originally to just leave it alone but i wanted to get into tuning and eventually do more with the truck

[Rob 689]

Also my knock counts after a few adjustments are only showing up under power enrichment. I need the wbo2 and pe support of the spreadsheet at this point too

[ralmo94]

Also my knock counts after a few adjustments are only showing up under power enrichment. I need the wbo2 and pe support of the spreadsheet at this point too

That's what trimalyzer is good for. It also will generate a knock count map, and you can filter data to pe only if you want.
Trimalyzer won't let you use the wrong layout. The table you copy has to match the table in trimalyzer.
You can also add tables to it, like the idle table doesn't come with it, but I add it.

I remember seeing the thread on the spreadsheet, trimalyzer also had a thread on it when steveo was working with it.

[Rob 689]

Please report back about how that bin runs after you run it.

I have the OL one on my laptop. Let me know when you are ready for it and I'll get it to you.


so i think i figured out what’s causing my knock counts. When i go past about 35 percent throttle the spark advance jumps to the max 50 degrees advanced. Even under load pulling a hill. It starts bringing the timing back as you lay into the throttle going up a hill but then at 34.5% TPS it consistently in all gears jumps to 50 degrees advanced. Not sure why its doing that tho but i havent played with it yet i just noticed on the way home from work and haven’t looked through the bin yet or anything. Any suggestions were to look first?

[Rob 689]

Is main spark bias what the distributor is set too?

[ralmo94]

Negative spark advance is reported as max. When you give it more you could be moving to a area of the table that causes more advance, or you could be causing pe spark. Don't mess with any bias! These are computed automatically and if you change them they won't be right.

I can't remember exactly off the top of my head what the distributor timing is called but I believe it is something like base timing. The parameter comments will say. You should read the comments in the XDF before making any changes to something.

[ralmo94]

Is main spark bias what the distributor is set too?

Here is how to see parameter comments.
18438

Here is what the distributor base timing is in the $od xdf
18439

Hope that helps

[Rob 689]

Negative spark advance is reported as max. When you give it more you could be moving to a area of the table that causes more advance, or you could be causing pe spark. Don't mess with any bias! These are computed automatically and if you change them they won't be right.

I can't remember exactly off the top of my head what the distributor timing is called but I believe it is something like base timing. The parameter comments will say. You should read the comments in the XDF before making any changes to something.

Yeah i kinda figured out the base timing thing. So what id spark bias then?

I didnt know about parameter comments. I noticed if you hover over things eith the mouse it says some little info on some of the things but didnt know about that menu option ill check it out.

That kinda nakes sense about the negative spark being seen as advanced spark cus it looked like the dial in the guage on tunerpro was like glitching out and i was curious if that could be it but didnt know at all lol.

Also i think im ready for the open loop file? Can you explain to me what i should be doing with that again. Also ive got my fueling very close but still not spot on and my last adjustment was worse than before so im like getting to a point were maybe my method isnt the greatest like maybe my data log is muddied by bad data?

I still get crap loads of knock counts. And the knock retard activates and goes to around 3-5 degrees retard if i keep my foot in it sometimes more but usually its only pulling a few degrees. How do i make that stop tho? Does power enrichment add spark? Surely its not a lean knock my wideband says between 11.5 and 12.5 under PE. Also should PE take forever to kick in?

Also when you say the bias is computed automatically, how? Like how is it determined what its supposed to be. Not that i think it needs changed but im curious and it seems the more i learn about how the computer operates the easier it is to get the results i want out of ny adjustments instead of blindly trying stuff lol. Already all the parameters and tables are starting to become less overwhelming lol at first the amount of crap added with the new computer compared to the simplicity of the old one had me going oh what did i get into for a second lol

[Rob 689]

I drive about 17 miles one way to work and during that time j got like 20,000 total knock counts. Used to be like zero in the old computer but it also had that external esc module so idk maybe thst was hiding some from the computer? Im running 87 octane btw

Is it normal to see some knocks under normal conditions with these computers? Surely i shouldnt get that many. It seems to go into knock retard mode during PE events. The spark advance jumping to 50 i think is the negative spark being reported as max advance like you said. Is there a way to change the definition file or like re configure the guage or something to fix the negative spark being reported as max? Its not critical but it wpuld be nice to be able to see the actual negative spark numbers

[Rob 689]

Or should i give it more afr during PE? Or is there like a pe spark setting? I also read the original prom chip out of the computer and figured out mostly how to get it to become manual and its the same as your file you gave me except a few things i didnt change over and my idle is like too low etc and that file you gave me is actually set up pretty good. Ill be going back to it as i dont wanna waste time trying to convert to a manual bin when i already gave a solid one. I also thought for some reason this entire time thag the original bin from the pcm was written in $0E and so as such i thought i wasn't able to compare to it to see what things were changed but as it turns out its $0D andcso i can totally compare everything to it and yeah.

I also ended up with the same issue on the shift light being stuck active in fifth gear lol for what its worth. Anyways the file you gave me seems solid the issues im having exist in the original bin that came from the computer too. I wish i could just load up my original bin from the old computer but its 9A i csnt compare to it and its waay different.

[Rob 689]

I also think im ready to use the wide band to tune the PE but i dont know how. I have the wbo2 spreadsheet for the ve tables and i really like how it works and how it breaks down the data in the log but how do i make it work for PE?

Can trimalyzer tune the PE tables specifically using wideband?

[ralmo94]

I remember reading a very old thread where grumpy was was teaching how to tune, I believe it was before this forum was strated. The XDF's available at that time if I remember correctly you had to do math and compute what the bias was. Been a long time since I read it, but I believe it is all handled by the XDF. My only attempt at altering them produced terrible results and I had to go back to a bin before I altered them, I may have had to start over with a download of a stock bin I don't remember. But then I remembered that ancient thread and felt foolish for messing with it. Lol.

Yes pe adds spark, I believe it is under PE spark, has a single column table with rpm as the axis.

If you want to run the open loop bin, all you should have to do is copy your VE and paste it in the open loop bin, same for idle ve. It should run the same as the closed loop bin I supplied you. Then I recommend you just follow the instructions in the how to tune open loop document I created. I spent a lot of time making Sure it wasn't a huge read and easy to follow. I also made a video demonstration of how to use it.
The video is a little long as it's meant to help people who also struggle with computers. But it is here.

https://youtu.be/i3oZwnNFejw

thiS is the method I suggest using to finish tuning.
Also for the knock, I suggest you reduce the whole table 2 deg until you are done with ve . If you continue taking timing out and still have the same kr and counts, it could be false. Give the engine bay a good look over for loose rattling heat shields and so on, also do you have a old barrel style starter, or a gear reduction? The old one can rattle around and mess with the knock sensor or so I've been told

[ralmo94]

I also think im ready to use the wide band to tune the PE but i dont know how. I have the wbo2 spreadsheet for the ve tables and i really like how it works and how it breaks down the data in the log but how do i make it work for PE?

Can trimalyzer tune the PE tables specifically using wideband?

Yes it can. Set filter for power enrichment true, I think that's the only filter you need.

Can't help you with the spreadsheet as I never have used it, I get great results from trimalyzer so I never messes with it.

[ralmo94]

I think I was typing while you were, if you are getting kr under knock only, you could zero out the PE spark. If you are running around 12 + or - .3 I wouldn't go any richer.

[Rob 689]

Yes it can. Set filter for power enrichment true, I think that's the only filter you need.

Can't help you with the spreadsheet as I never have used it, I get great results from trimalyzer so I never messes with it.

I was trying all the options to see what i like. I still dont have an answer they both have strong positives. I couldn’t find a table resolution that matched the idle table in my bin so copy and pasting didnt work so i just copied rows that matched over from the main table that i had already correct and then i would interpolate the columns to fill in the missing rows. Not dure if thats correct or if theres just a setting im missing. Other than that, which is probably me not knowing how to use it entirely anyways, the trimalyzer is great.

[ralmo94]

I was trying all the options to see what i like. I still dont have an answer they both have strong positives. I couldn’t find a table resolution that matched the idle table in my bin so copy and pasting didnt work so i just copied rows that matched over from the main table that i had already correct and then i would interpolate the columns to fill in the missing rows. Not dure if thats correct or if theres just a setting im missing. Other than that, which is probably me not knowing how to use it entirely anyways, the trimalyzer is great.

You have to add the idle. If you fast forward my video to about 12 min in I show how.

[Rob 689]

I also haven’t played with the filter in trimalyzer at all. Ill be checking that out next i dont know why i hadn’t already

[ralmo94]

I also haven’t played with the filter in trimalyzer at all. Ill be checking that out next i dont know why i hadn’t already

Yeah if you don't filter data for ve changes you have to turn PE off AE, decel, ect, when you filter it all out you can just drive normal, and combine a couple logs, and you don't even have to wait till the truck warms up to start logging if you filter for engine temp.

[Rob 689]

Yeah if you don't filter data for ve changes you have to turn PE off AE, decel, ect, when you filter it all out you can just drive normal, and combine a couple logs, and you don't even have to wait till the truck warms up to start logging if you filter for engine temp.

Yeah i think the spreadsheet does all that automatically. It only does wbo2 and only for the 7427 family of pcms if im understanding correctly. Trimalyzer can be made to work for a lot of things if im not mistaken?

[Rob 689]

I remember reading a very old thread where grumpy was was teaching how to tune, I believe it was before this forum was strated. The XDF's available at that time if I remember correctly you had to do math and compute what the bias was. Been a long time since I read it, but I believe it is all handled by the XDF. My only attempt at altering them produced terrible results and I had to go back to a bin before I altered them, I may have had to start over with a download of a stock bin I don't remember. But then I remembered that ancient thread and felt foolish for messing with it. Lol.

Yes pe adds spark, I believe it is under PE spark, has a single column table with rpm as the axis.

If you want to run the open loop bin, all you should have to do is copy your VE and paste it in the open loop bin, same for idle ve. It should run the same as the closed loop bin I supplied you. Then I recommend you just follow the instructions in the how to tune open loop document I created. I spent a lot of time making Shure it wasn't a huge reason and easy to follow. I also made a video demonstration of how to use it.
The video is a little long as it's meant to help people who also struggle with computers. But it is here.

https://youtu.be/i3oZwnNFejw

thiS is the method I suggest using to finishtuning.
Also for the knock, I suggest you reduce the whole table 2 deg until you are done with ve . If you continue taking timing out and still have the same kr and counts, it could be false. Give the engine bay a good look over for loose rattling heat shields and so on, also do you have a old barrel style starter, or a gear reduction? The old one can rattle around and mess with the knock sensor or so I've been told

So yeah I finally got a minute to sit down anf watch through the trimalyzer video and yeah I definitely was doing it wrong. I didn’t realize how many filter options there are etc or that i could make a table with appropriate layout for the idle ve, it wasnt already there so i thought it just wasnt there lol. Thank you its really easy to use and the couple adjustments i made to my main ve table originally were with solid good results and i didnt even know what i was doing, it definitely seems to work

[Rob 689]

To run open loop what is changed? The blm and int get locked at 128 using the minimum and maximum scalars right? That bin that i had that wouldnt update the blm was probably an open loop file now that i think about it. I suppose i was supposed to start tuning in open loop then tune in closed loop and im assuming that’s probably why the other guy gave me a file that had the blm locked. I just didn’t realize it but now i think i deleted it.

[Rob 689]

What else gets changed tho? Tables? Cus when i matched those blm parameters scalars with a stock bin the dang thing still wouldnt update so theres other things need changed as well correct?

[ralmo94]

What else gets changed tho? Tables? Cus when i matched those blm parameters scalars with a stock bin the dang thing still wouldnt update so theres other things need changed as well correct?

Closed loop temp, temp for blm update open loop afr and integrator parameters also.
I have already done that work for you and there is a ol bin and a cl bin in the manual zip file on the how to article.

If you want to see the issues I was having when I figured it out it's in a thread on here called open loop blm

As you get close, you should look at your VE table in 3d also to make sure there are no huge dips, as map goes up ve should to, same should be said for RPM until you get to the peak rpm, then it can taper off a little, kinda make a guess at the areas you never reach the table should look fairly smooth and linear.

[Rob 689]

Closed loop temp, temp for blm update open loop afr and integrator parameters also.
I have already done that work for you and there is a ol bin and a cl bin in the manual zip file on the how to article.

If you want to see the issues I was having when I figured it out it's in a thread on here called open loop blm

As you get close, you should look at your VE table in 3d also to make sure there are no huge dips, as map goes up ve should to, same should be said for RPM until you get to the peak rpm, then it can taper off a little, kinda make a guess at the areas you never reach the table should look fairly smooth and linear.

Awsome thank you. sorry i just automatically assumed it was all auto. its hard to find the manual stuff a little bit.

And thank you for the advice with tuning.

[Rob 689]

I also did smooth my whole fuel maps both idle and off idle a few adjustments ago when i first tried out the trimalyzer i smoothed everything column by column then row by row with a factor of .7 like i read to do on another thread here it was a turorial on using a spreadsheet and the blm to tune. Its pretty decent it could probably get smoothed out again as its starting to get less flat and smooth, it seemed to change alot of the data points by doing it every single time. perhaps .7 is too much after the initial smoothing? it is quite rough to begin with but maybe i should try a smaller amount.

[ralmo94]

Awsome thank you. sorry i just automatically assumed it was all auto. its hard to find the manual stuff a little bit.

And thank you for the advice with tuning.

Yeah I added the manual zip when you confirmed there were no major issues with it.


perhaps .7 is too much after the initial smoothing? it is quite rough to begin with but maybe i should try a smaller amount.

If I use the auto smoothing feature, I always have it way turned down, I like to look at the log in trimalyzer for the cells that have a spike or dip, if you mouse over, it will tell you how many samples it was based on, if all the samples counts are similar, Them I average the adjacent cells, and either fill all three with that number, or choose three numbers that increment in the right direction that still averages the same number. Thats just how I do it, you can also select just a few cells and smooth only them and not the whole table, you probably already know that.

[ralmo94]

Is there a way to change the definition file or like re configure the guage or something to fix the negative spark being reported as max? Its not critical but it wpuld be nice to be able to see the actual negative spark numbers

I had never messed with this on my truck, just did a couple searches on it and didn't find anything, and left it be.
But you got me curious so I took a look at it.

If you click on acquisition> edit definition,
You can click on values > Spark Advance
18449
Notice "Range Low" is set to zero
18450
I changed it to -15
18451
Then I saved as and gave the new adx a new name.
The Data Dash gauge automatically displayed -15 as the minimum
I opened 2 instances of TP one with modded adx and one with un modded, I played the same log file in both, copied and pasted Running Min spark advance in a spreadsheet, and had it show differences and it found none, so that should confirm that spark advance is still accurately displayed if you change as I did. The Log I used had no Neg Spark
18452
Hope that helps

[Rob 689]

I had never messed with this on my truck, just did a couple searches on it and didn't find anything, and left it be.
But you got me curious so I took a look at it.

If you click on acquisition> edit definition,
You can click on values > Spark Advance
18449
Notice "Range Low" is set to zero
18450
I changed it to -15
18451
Then I saved as and gave the new adx a new name.
The Data Dash gauge automatically displayed -15 as the minimum
I opened 2 instances of TP one with modded adx and one with un modded, I played the same log file in both, copied and pasted Running Min spark advance in a spreadsheet, and had it show differences and it found none, so that should confirm that spark advance is still accurately displayed if you change as I did. The Log I used had no Neg Spark
18452
Hope that helps

Wow thats just awsome. This forum is great. Yeah that helps a crap load lol it bothered me not knowing anything beside oh welp it’s at 50 again must be negative lol. Being able to actually see what its doing i feel less lost in the dark, i dont like guessing lol. I had to do alot of guessing at first lol now im understanding things abd its getting easier. Even just learning the tunerpro software and all of its little features is a feat in itself lol

[ralmo94]

I had never messed with this on my truck, just did a couple searches on it and didn't find anything, and left it be.
But you got me curious so I took a look at it.

If you click on acquisition> edit definition,
You can click on values > Spark Advance
18449
Notice "Range Low" is set to zero
18450
I changed it to -15
18451
Then I saved as and gave the new adx a new name.
The Data Dash gauge automatically displayed -15 as the minimum
I opened 2 instances of TP one with modded adx and one with un modded, I played the same log file in both, copied and pasted Running Min spark advance in a spreadsheet, and had it show differences and it found none, so that should confirm that spark advance is still accurately displayed if you change as I did. The Log I used had no Neg Spark
18452
Hope that helps

I found an old log of mine with neg spark and I am reporting back that this ADX mod DOES NOT WORK . When advance goes neg it jumps straight to 50, just like the other adx

[ralmo94]

So i do have an issue with the shift light still coming on when im in fifth gear as if i had a 6th gear to go to which isnt an issue but is slightly annoying any idea how to solve that lol.


Comparing to BHFM stock 94 4cylinder 5 speed $OD, I see the following shift light settings that may be of interest
18460
TPS lower limit for shift light (High Gears) is where I would start, and see if changing it the compare data changes anything. If not, you could look at some of the other tables and experiment with them.
Always save as right as you open tuner pro,This does 2 things, You can easily go back a step in case something doesn't work, and you get a text file log with what you changed, when you are experimenting it helps a lot to figure out what worked and what didn't. If you mess with these settings, please report back with your findings.

[ralmo94]

Here are the values on the BDXA v6 5 speed bin18462

[Rob 689]

Comparing to BHFM stock 94 4cylinder 5 speed $OD, I see the following shift light settings that may be of interest
18460
TPS lower limit for shift light (High Gears) is where I would start, and see if changing it the compare data changes anything. If not, you could look at some of the other tables and experiment with them.
Always save as right as you open tuner pro,This does 2 things, You can easily go back a step in case something doesn't work, and you get a text file log with what you changed, when you are experimenting it helps a lot to figure out what worked and what didn't. If you mess with these settings, please report back with your findings.


Oh yeah that probably will be useful thanks!

Also yeah i tried changing the guage minimum and found the same thing lol. Guess it just is what it is. Why would one even want negative spark? Even under heavy load why wpuld that help?

[Rob 689]

Also ive got my fueling to be pretty good. Still not perfect but it still feels a decent bit slower than it did before the swap. It also randomly gets every now and again a little surge where it pulls hard for like a half a mili second and then goes away.The original bin was in $9A on the old computer. Is there a way to compare between different masks? I could probably get 90 percent of this thing dialed right in if that were possible

[ralmo94]

Neg Advance is when the plug is fired after TDC instead of before.
At that point you might as well be dieseling. That's my understanding,
Peak power is theoretically supposed to happen at about 20 deg ATDC when the rod has leverage,
I guess if it takes only 15 deg to fully ignight you could have -5 advance and it would be just right.
But even then you are sparking after peak compression
I guess the main question is what is causing the neg advance, is it in the main table, is it kr, or is it an octain multiplier

[ralmo94]

The original bin was in $9A on the old computer. Is there a way to compare between different masks? I could probably get 90 percent of this thing dialed right in if that were possible

If you have a copy of it and an XDF for it, you can go to tools > custom tools > new tuner pro instance
18469
Then you can have $od on one window and $9a in the other one and visually compare things like Spark advance table PE and VE and such.


Also ive got my fueling to be pretty good. Still not perfect

It will never be perfect, as close as you can hope for is between -5 and 0

[Rob 689]

Im sure its spark advance but where do i even start

[Rob 689]

If you have a copy of it and an XDF for it, you can go to tools > custom tools > new tuner pro instance
18469
Then you can have $od on one window and $9a in the other one and visually compare things like Spark advance table PE and VE and such.


It will never be perfect, as close as you can hope for is between -5 and 0

Ahh thanks that’s helpful as i tried opening another window of tunerpro and it wouldnt let me. I only have one laptop lol. Anyways thanks

Also between -5 and 0? Of what afr error?

[Rob 689]

Since getting the fueling dialed in i only get knocks when i first start it when it fires initially and then sometimes when i sbap the throttle and under power enrichment. I reduced the power enrichment table and i think that solved knock retard i havent seen it come back since but the knock counts still pile up eventually even tho no knock retard occurs.

[ralmo94]

Im sure its spark advance but where do i even start
If you are using the xdf from my zip folder change visibility to level 2 only,
Main Spark advance table is there.

Looking at the stock timing tables they bottom out at 0 deg
Im sure it is a multiplier somewhere

[Rob 689]

And the seat of my pants says its down on power when i get on it trying accelerate hard.

[Rob 689]

If you are using the xdf from my zip folder change visibility to level 2 only,
Main Spark advance table is there.

Looking at the stock timing tables they bottom out at 0 deg
Im sure it is a multiplier somewhere

Hmm yeah ill keep looking. Should i be worried about changing all the negative spark cells to zero? That wont hurt anything right?

theres only a few and theoretically i shouldnt ever even hit them since theyre in the top end of the map like 80 kpa or so but at like idle rpm

[ralmo94]

Since getting the fueling dialed in i only get knocks when i first start it when it fires initially and then sometimes when i sbap the throttle and under power enrichment. I reduced the power enrichment table and i think that solved knock retard i havent seen it come back since but the knock counts still pile up eventually even tho no knock retard occurs.

Counts are normal, if its not retarding its fine. If you wish to dial in timing there are several write ups on it.
My advice is take it slow

On the third gen forum there was a spreadsheet for creating a spark table.
Just remember the heads don't like as much timing as the old open chambers, and 87 octane probably doesn't tolerate much if any more than stock unless you have a big cam that bleeds off compression.

I think I would try changing the zero's to 2's and log it and see if retards, if no noticeable performance increase I would put it back to stock. just my $0.02

[ralmo94]

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?10796-Ignition-Timing

Here is a thread I started asking the community about spark advance.

Stevo's reply in post #8 was a really good explanation

[PlayingWithTBI]

Counts are normal, if its not retarding its fine. If you wish to dial in timing there are several write ups on it.
My advice is take it slow

On the third gen forum there was a spreadsheet for creating a spark table.
Just remember the heads don't like as much timing as the old open chambers, and 87 octane probably doesn't tolerate much if any more than stock unless you have a big cam that bleeds off compression.

I think I would try changing the zero's to 2's and log it and see if retards, if no noticeable performance increase I would put it back to stock. just my $0.02

Is this the one you're talking about? 84Elky posted it here too.:thumbsup:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/diy-prom/761049-spark-advance-table-example.html#post6301288

[ralmo94]

Yes I believe that is the one. I remembered it having a pretty good write up along with it too
:thumbsup:

[tayto]

pretty common to see knock counts on startup and shutdown. tip-in knock counts could be timing related or fuel mixture. TBI heads don't need much all in timing they are an efficient chamber. 25-30* all in. Cruise will like mid-30s to low 40s, this is not your "regular" 36* all in SBC head, so try and not pay attention to too much you read on the internet...

[Rob 689]

If you are using the xdf from my zip folder change visibility to level 2 only,
Main Spark advance table is there.

Looking at the stock timing tables they bottom out at 0 deg
Im sure it is a multiplier somewhere

The tables from my original prom before the pcm swap dip quite a bit into the negatives in a few tables i think the coolant temp one was one of the main ones. I worked late last night to copy as much over as i could that made sense and was in essence the same table and interpolated the parts were the tables resolutions didnt match and i copied over a bunch of PE stuff and yeah anyways NOW the truck is running right finally and i can fine tune everything. needless to say my afr is off again.

In trimalyzer do you use loose cell strict cell or geometric?

[Rob 689]

How do you tune Power enrichment specifically?

Also how would i go about venturing away from a stock timing table without screwing it up? How do you tell what it needs for timing? Knock counts still exist in rare instances. i think my PE AFR is a little too lean maybe? I dont know how to tell what it needs cus obviously it doesnt need 14.7 but how do i know if it need 11.5 or 12.5, 13.0? whats the target in PE and how do you calculate it? Trial and error?

[Rob 689]

pretty common to see knock counts on startup and shutdown. tip-in knock counts could be timing related or fuel mixture. TBI heads don't need much all in timing they are an efficient chamber. 25-30* all in. Cruise will like mid-30s to low 40s, this is not your "regular" 36* all in SBC head, so try and not pay attention to too much you read on the internet...

What are the consequences of too far retarded ignition?

Aside from ridding it of knocks how do you know what it needs for peak power or at least as close to there as humanly possible without a dyno.

[Rob 689]

Counts are normal, if its not retarding its fine. If you wish to dial in timing there are several write ups on it.
My advice is take it slow

On the third gen forum there was a spreadsheet for creating a spark table.
Just remember the heads don't like as much timing as the old open chambers, and 87 octane probably doesn't tolerate much if any more than stock unless you have a big cam that bleeds off compression.

I think I would try changing the zero's to 2's and log it and see if retards, if no noticeable performance increase I would put it back to stock. just my $0.02

Thank you. Yeah i probably wont mess with timing much really until i get the vortec built and swapped in. I might try changing the zeros to see like you say. gotta finish the fueling first i think.

[ralmo94]

In trimalyzer do you use loose cell strict cell or geometric?
I personally use the geo that it is on by default, seems to work best for me, at least in open loop.




How do you tune Power enrichment specifically?
The way I do it, is dial in the ve first, then I use trimalyzer and filter for pe true and Change the commanded afr the amount it is off from my target afr in arbitrary value mode.


I dont know how to tell what it needs cus obviously it doesnt need 14.7 but how do i know if it need 11.5 or 12.5, 13.0?

If you Google really hard, you can find a temp versus afr graph, and you can also find an afr vs flame speed graph, and there are more than one with different ranges. Peak heat is around stioch, if I remember correctly peak torque is around 12.8 - 13.5,
And peak horsepower between 11.8 - 12.8. exact place in ranges depend on each individual engine.

If I remember correctly fastest burn speed is at around 12.5-12.8 afr

As you go richer the fuel has a cooling effect to the air as it evaporates. Also more fuel takes longer to burn, these two things are why PE spark is more than the table. Also as you go leaner than stioch it takes longer to burn, why lean burn likes more timing.

Too rich and you are leaving power on the table, too lean and you can induce heat and knock with the heat possibly.
Most Original engines these day can survive full load without pe, example, my dodge NEVER entered PE unless you had it 95% throttle,
And I can assure you it reached full load lots of times at 50-60% throttle.

I like to aim for about 12.8 on the wide band, if there is no knock, I like to go a touch leaner and see if power picks up or drops a noticable ammount along with keeping an eye on kr. If kr occurs either take out timing or add fuel.
That's how I do it.

[ralmo94]

Thank you. Yeah i probably wont mess with timing much really until i get the vortec built and swapped in. I might try changing the zeros to see like you say. gotta finish the fueling first i think.

If you swap vortec heads, I would start with a stock vortec timing table then

[Rob 689]

I personally use the geo that it is on by default, seems to work best for me, at least in open loop.


The way I do it, is dial in the ve first, then I use trimalyzer and filter for pe true and Change the commanded afr the amount it is off from my target afr in arbitrary value mode.



If you Google really hard, you can find a temp versus afr graph, and you can also find an afr vs flame speed graph, and there are more than one with different ranges. Peak heat is around stioch, if I remember correctly peak torque is around 12.8 - 13.5,
And peak horsepower between 11.8 - 12.8. exact place in ranges depend on each individual engine.

If I remember correctly fastest burn speed is at around 12.5-12.8 afr

As you go richer the fuel has a cooling effect to the air as it evaporates. Also more fuel takes longer to burn, these two things are why PE spark is more than the table. Also as you go leaner than stioch it takes longer to burn, why lean burn likes more timing.

Too rich and you are leaving power on the table, too lean and you can induce heat and knock with the heat possibly.
Most Original engines these day can survive full load without pe, example, my dodge NEVER entered PE unless you had it 95% throttle,
And I can assure you it reached full load lots of times at 50-60% throttle.

I like to aim for about 12.8 on the wide band, if there is no knock, I like to go a touch leaner and see if power picks up or drops a noticable ammount along with keeping an eye on kr. If kr occurs either take out timing or add fuel.
That's how I do it.

Okay thank you makes sense.