Cylinder select error

[JeepsAndGuns]

Doing some more playing around with my test harness in prep for my jeep 4.0 to 7727 swap. When I tested the harness, I was just using a $8D V8 bin and memcal, with minimal mods (disable egr, and error codes, etc..) I then took a V6 7727 memcal and removed the stock prom and sodered in a 27sf512. I burnt the test bin to it and have been using it to test the other ecm's no problem. I also plan to use this memcal in the the swap, since its 6cyl.

Only thing was, all times I tested a ecm, when I would run the distributor, after a few seconds I would get a check engine light for EST failure. I thought maybe I had a bad module, so I swapped it out and still same error code. Then I thought it maybe was because I was using a 6cyl distributor on a 8cyl bin. So I changed the cylinder number to what it should be for a 6cyl. Tried that and now not only do I get the same EST failure code, I now also get a cylinder select error. If this is a V6 memcal, and the cylinder number is set to 6cyl in the bin, why would I get the cylinder select error? And why would I NOT get it when running a V8 bin on a V6 memcal, but DO get it when I switch bin to 6cyl?

And last, would the est failure be because I am not actually running a engine?


Oh yea, heres my poor mans test setup...lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aj9OpJUi-A&feature=youtu.be

[EagleMark]

Not sure on the rest but the EST error could be the EST in distributor is not grounded to the test bench harness... the mounting screws that hold EST are the grounds to distributor which is grounded to engine. Couldn't really see if it was in the video.

[Six_Shooter]

When you entered a value in the cyl select scaler, did you enter "6" or the hexidecimal value for 6 cylinder? Many of the XDFs I have come accross are set up to use a hexidecimal value there.

[JeepsAndGuns]

When you entered a value in the cyl select scaler, did you enter "6" or the hexidecimal value for 6 cylinder? Many of the XDFs I have come accross are set up to use a hexidecimal value there.

The comments on all the 8D xdf's I have seen say "use 0 for 8 cylinders, use 128 for 4 cylinders, and use 192 for 6 cylinders" So I entered in 192.

Mark, I will double check my ground for the distributor.

[dave w]

I'm wondering if the V6 Memcal will work with $8D, even if the cylinder number is set for a 6 cylinder? I've had cylinder select errors using a 7727 / 7730 V6 Memcal with $8D / V8 distributor. I modified the V6 memcal for V8 service and the cylinder select error went away. I've never tried using a V6 Memcal with a V6 distributor and $8D. An option I think I'd try; use a V6 definition with a V6 Memcal and V6 distributor and verify that setup is without errors.

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

I dont think there are any V6 $8D bins out there. The memcal I am using is from a $A1 car. But those are DIS. Are there any 7730/7727 V6 engines that still use a distributor?

[Six_Shooter]

I dont think there are any V6 $8D bins out there. The memcal I am using is from a $A1 car. But those are DIS. Are there any 7730/7727 V6 engines that still use a distributor?

Yes, '90 to '93 3.1 F-body.

But there are no ignition properties in the LHM side of the MEMCAL. In LHM, base timing is used, with no influence from the ECM, so ignition type really doesn't matter for original application.

[dave w]

I dont think there are any V6 $8D bins out there. The memcal I am using is from a $A1 car. But those are DIS. Are there any 7730/7727 V6 engines that still use a distributor?

I've used distributors instead of DIS on the test bench without error. The DIS "Reference High Pulse" is the same signal as the Distributor "Reference High Pulse" being sent to the ECM. I think you will have the same results as I did on your test bench if you send the $A1 definition the V6 Distributor "Reference High Pulse".

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

Yes, '90 to '93 3.1 F-body.

But there are no ignition properties in the LHM side of the MEMCAL. In LHM, base timing is used, with no influence from the ECM, so ignition type really doesn't matter for original application.

Those would be $A1 wouldn't they?

Will $8D even run a 6cyl? If I am getting the cylinder select error with a V6 ($A1) memcal, then what memcal can I use with 8D and a 6cyl? Whats in the memcal that's making this error code pop up?

I chose $8D over $A1 because 8D is for a distributor and A1 is DIS. My engine uses a distributor.

Edit: You are correct, spent some time on google and the camaro 3.1's do use a distributor. Are those still $A1? If so, then A1 was used in both distributor and DIS engines?
So then, would I be better off using A1 instead of 8D?

[dave w]

So then, would I be better off using A1 instead of 8D?

I would try getting $A1 working with a distributor first, then I'd try figure out if there is a way to get $8D to work with a V6. Using a test bench is a good way to figure this stuff out!:thumbsup:

dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

Does anyone have a 7730 camaro 3.1L bin file? I didnt see one listed in the $A1 thread.

Edit: Well it appears those are $88. Why is the 90-93 camaros also listed in the $A1 thread? Was there both $88 and $A1 bin files for those engines in those year ranges?

[Six_Shooter]

Those would be $A1 wouldn't they?

Will $8D even run a 6cyl? If I am getting the cylinder select error with a V6 ($A1) memcal, then what memcal can I use with 8D and a 6cyl? Whats in the memcal that's making this error code pop up?

I chose $8D over $A1 because 8D is for a distributor and A1 is DIS. My engine uses a distributor.

Edit: You are correct, spent some time on google and the camaro 3.1's do use a distributor. Are those still $A1? If so, then A1 was used in both distributor and DIS engines?
So then, would I be better off using A1 instead of 8D?


Does anyone have a 7730 camaro 3.1L bin file? I didnt see one listed in the $A1 thread.

Edit: Well it appears those are $88. Why is the 90-93 camaros also listed in the $A1 thread? Was there both $88 and $A1 bin files for those engines in those year ranges?

As you found the 3.1 V6 F-bodies are $88. No idea why they would be listed in the $A1 thread.

There's no reason why $8D can't be used with a 6 cylinder.

[RobertISaar]

IIRC, a lot of the V6Z24 forum guys use 8D on their 3.1/3x00s.

i used to know why GM didn't move the F-bodies to A1, but i can't remember anymore.

[JeepsAndGuns]

So do we think the cylinder select error might be bin related or memcal related?
Anyone have a camaro V6 $88 memcal? I will try a $A1 bin on my test harness when I can get a chance, and see what happens.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Just read through dyeager535's tbi knock board thread and it got me thinking.
Since I am getting the cylinder select error using a $A1 V6 memcal, with a V8 $8D bin with the cylinder count changed to 6 cylinders, and getting the cylinder select error, I wonder if I could use a TBI 7427 4.3 memcal with a PFI jumper wire put in (just like I did for my 7427 mpfi on my cherokee) Wonder if that would get rid of the cylinder select error? A 4.3 is much closer in displacement to my 4.0 than the 3.1, so knock filter may get along better.

Also wondering, what exactly sets the cylinder select error code anyways? And why would I NOT get it running a V8 8D bin, with a A1 V6 memcal, but once I switch the bin to 6 cylinders, I suddenly get the error? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[RobertISaar]

knock filter is created based mainly on bore size, so try and match up the bore of the 4.0 with the closest GM application.

cylinder select code is based on a couple of pins on the MEMCAL and what's stored in the PROM as the correct combination of pins either high(5 volts) or low(0 volts). it's only 2 pins in every application i've come across that uses them, so 4 possible combinations. 00, 01, 10, 11.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Is there a way to test the specific two pins with a ohm meter?
Any chance a A1 V6 memcal, and a 8D V8 memcal use the same setting?
When you change cylinder count in a bin, does it also change what its expecting to see from the memcal?

[RobertISaar]

there is a way to test, but i forget how at this point. if i had to guess, i'd say take a multimeter and test resistance of the pin that sets it and see if it's connected via a resistor to the ground or to the 5V pin.

no, PFI V6 and PFI V8 have different pin combinations.

$18=TBI
$10=4 CYL PFI
$08=6 CYL PFI
$00=8 CYL PFI

the way to read that is that with TBI, both pins are tied to 5V via a resistor(or directly, i forget at this point), 8 cyl PFI, both pins are tied to ground, 4 and 6 cyl PFI both have 1 pin going in each direction, but it's the opposite pin depending on 4 vs 6 cylinders.

i don't think it makes an actual difference unless you get into limp-home mode, or at least that's what my currently MEMCAL-less testbench is implying, since i have it setup for 6 cylinders in the BIN and it seems to be firing them in the correct sequence.

there MAY be more than one location that needs changed, in A1, it's done in the diagnostics section.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Well the 4.3 is probably gonna be the closest to the 4.0 as I can get. So I got wondering, could I use a 7427 CPI 4.3 memcal with the 7727? Is the CPI memcal set up the same since its CPI?

I have a 7427 TBI 4.3 memcal, but not a CPI one. Could the MPFI jumper wire be put in the TBI memcal to make it work?

[dave w]

I've noticed the '7427 PCM's use different knock sensor part numbers, auto vs. manual transmission.

dave w

[RobertISaar]

i ASSUME that CPI would be setup like PFI, since it is 1 injector per cylinder, but it would be good to confirm this first.

did some digging, bits 3 and 4 of the FMD byte 2(?) response. that's chip U13 on the board. it performs a LOT of functions, unfortunately, Ludis didn't specifically identify those pins in his diagrams, so some digging on TGO would probably turn up an answer.

[1project2many]

I've noticed the '7427 PCM's use different knock sensor part numbers, auto vs. manual transmission.

dave w

Check the number of sensors used... dual vs single may play a part. Also, sensors used in lower part of block have 1/4" pipe thread while sensors installed in back of block or head may use 3/8"-16 thread.

[JeepsAndGuns]

OK, had what I think is a productive day.
Started out remembering once when looking through the s-aujp xdf seeing a bunch of error qalifiers. So I pulled up that xdf and found the one for cylinder select error, and the comments gave what to type in for what your using.
00=8cyl
18=tbi
10=4cyl
08=6cyl

So I checked the hack and found it was the same address as the stock bin (0x293) So I copy and pasted that to my xdf. I then opened my test bench bin, changed it to 08, burnt it to the chip and gave it a go. Success! No more cylinder select error!
Also, I looked at my harness, and noticed I had forgot to hook up the ground wire from the distributor :homer::mad1:, fixed that and no more EST failure error!

So since I was on a roll, I decided to try one more thing. I took the 7427 4.3 TBI memcal I had, added the jumper wire for PFI, and decided to give that a go. I found out the moates G1 will not fit in a 7730...lol. But fits fine in a 7727. Popped it in and gave it a go. Everything seemed to work just fine. No cylinder select errors or any other error codes. I even ran the distributor a little longer than I had just to make sure. All the data on the log looked the same as it did with the 7727 A1 V6 memcal.
Now I cant say everything would function like it should with the jumpered tbi memcal if it went into limp home. Mabey yall might know?


OK, I did lie a bit, I said no error codes, when actually I do have one, but its for the esc, and thats because I dont have a knock sensor hooked up. But that ones expected, I just forgot to turn that code off...lol

[Six_Shooter]

G1 definitely fits in a '7730, that's what I'm using in mine.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Strange. For some reason I could not get it to fit for anything. The memcal kept hitting the main body and wouldnt let me even get it close to plugging in. Maybe I didnt try hard enough..lol

[RobertISaar]

i seem to remember 7730s having issues with the access door closing with a G1/G3 with a ZIF installed, but would otherwise fit.

i ASSUME it will work correctly in limp-home mode, but you'll never really know until it happens. good to hear it's all functioning now though.

[Six_Shooter]

i seem to remember 7730s having issues with the access door closing with a G1/G3 with a ZIF installed, but would otherwise fit.

i ASSUME it will work correctly in limp-home mode, but you'll never really know until it happens. good to hear it's all functioning now though.

Easy way to test LHM, pull the EEPROM, and have only the LHM NETRES and RDF chips connected. ;) This is how I know that my car will run on the TGP MEMCAL, after finding out the hard way that it wouldn't run on a Cavalier MEMCAL.

[dave w]

OK, had what I think is a productive day.
Started out remembering once when looking through the s-aujp xdf seeing a bunch of error qalifiers. So I pulled up that xdf and found the one for cylinder select error, and the comments gave what to type in for what your using.
00=8cyl
18=tbi
10=4cyl
08=6cyl

So I checked the hack and found it was the same address as the stock bin (0x293) So I copy and pasted that to my xdf. I then opened my test bench bin, changed it to 08, burnt it to the chip and gave it a go. Success! No more cylinder select error!

So since I was on a roll, I decided to try one more thing. I took the 7427 4.3 TBI memcal I had, added the jumper wire for PFI, and decided to give that a go. I found out the moates G1 will not fit in a 7730...lol. But fits fine in a 7727. Popped it in and gave it a go. Everything seemed to work just fine. No cylinder select errors or any other error codes. I even ran the distributor a little longer than I had just to make sure. All the data on the log looked the same as it did with the 7727 A1 V6 memcal.
Now I cant say everything would function like it should with the jumpered tbi memcal if it went into limp home.

You have me re-thinking about my not so successful experiment to use a '7727 for TBI using 8D.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?454-What-If-8D-(1227727-ECM)-for-TBI

I ended up not being able to resolve the cylinder select error. Basically I used an unmodified '427 V8 TBI Memcal to get the correct DRP's, which appears to work according to the O'scope. Thanks for posting your results!:thumbsup:

dave w

[EagleMark]

Also, I looked at my harness, and noticed I had forgot to hook up the ground wire from the distributor :homer::mad1:, fixed that and no more EST failure error!

Sweet! That's how I found the error code when I did a bench, but it took a lot longer...


OK, had what I think is a productive day.
Started out remembering once when looking through the s-aujp xdf seeing a bunch of error qalifiers. So I pulled up that xdf and found the one for cylinder select error, and the comments gave what to type in for what your using.
00=8cyl
18=tbi
10=4cyl
08=6cyl

So I checked the hack and found it was the same address as the stock bin (0x293) So I copy and pasted that to my xdf. I then opened my test bench bin, changed it to 08, burnt it to the chip and gave it a go. Success! No more cylinder select error!

So since I was on a roll, I decided to try one more thing. I took the 7427 4.3 TBI memcal I had, added the jumper wire for PFI, and decided to give that a go. I found out the moates G1 will not fit in a 7730...lol. But fits fine in a 7727. Popped it in and gave it a go. Everything seemed to work just fine. No cylinder select errors or any other error codes. I even ran the distributor a little longer than I had just to make sure. All the data on the log looked the same as it did with the 7727 A1 V6 memcal.
Now I cant say everything would function like it should with the jumpered tbi memcal if it went into limp home. Mabey yall might know?


OK, I did lie a bit, I said no error codes, when actually I do have one, but its for the esc, and thats because I dont have a knock sensor hooked up. But that ones expected, I just forgot to turn that code off...lolThose are hex vaules and the way the XDF is commented is wrong. You just found a major flaw in the $8D XDF. Since most of the work has been done for V8 I suppose is why no one ever noticed.

The comments "Use 0 for 8 Cylinders Use 128 for 4 Cylinders Use 192 for 6 Cylinders " are wrong. I went into the XDF paremeter and tried all the options and could not find one that would show proper hex for any of the entries, entered like that?

If you open Edit XDF Paremeter and change Significant to 0. Then use comment:
Use 0 for 8 Cylinders.
Use 16 for 4 Cylinders.
Use 8 for 6 Cylinders.
Use 24 for TBI.
It all comes out properly in hex.

I commented my XDF to say:
"Use 0 for 8 Cylinders.
Use 16 for 4 Cylinders.
Use 8 for 6 Cylinders.
Use 24 for TBI.

Hex values are
00=8cyl
18=tbi
10=4cyl
08=6cyl
"

[JeepsAndGuns]

Just read that whole thread. My head is spinning just a bit. But by the end, it looks like yall found the same value that I did at 0x293. So using the 7427 tbi memcal, and changing that value to 18, you still got the cylinder select error? I have my test harness all laid out and ready to test, also have a few 7427 V8 tbi memcals. I have a couple of tbi injectors, but I do not have any of the resistors yall mention using to put between the injectors and the ecm. If you do not have a test harness set up at the moment, can give me instructions on what to do/change, I would be willing to help out out with testing. What did you end up using? If I am reading post number 120 correctly, you used $A1? it also looked like you were changing the cylinder number to 18, the 8D xdf I have says use 0 for 8cyl, 128 for 4cyl, and 192 for 6cyl. I'm thinking changing that value (0x09) to something other than those 3 values may not work right. Did you have sucess running a tbi engine with the 7727?
I would like to try some testing myself, if you can tell me what to do about resistors and the injectors, so I don't fry something.
I agree with yall that being able to run tbi with the 7727 would be handy for conversions.

[JeepsAndGuns]

Those are hex vaules and the way the XDF is commented is wrong. You just found a major flaw in the $8D XDF. Since most of the work has been done for V8 I suppose is why no one ever noticed.

The comments "Use 0 for 8 Cylinders Use 128 for 4 Cylinders Use 192 for 6 Cylinders " are wrong. I went into the XDF paremeter and tried all the options and could not find one that would show proper hex for any of the entries, entered like that?

If you open Edit XDF Paremeter and change Significant to 0. Then use comment:
Use 0 for 8 Cylinders.
Use 16 for 4 Cylinders.
Use 8 for 6 Cylinders.
Use 24 for TBI.
It all comes out properly in hex.

I commented my XDF to say:
"Use 0 for 8 Cylinders.
Use 16 for 4 Cylinders.
Use 8 for 6 Cylinders.
Use 24 for TBI.

Hex values are
00=8cyl
18=tbi
10=4cyl
08=6cyl
"

Wow really? I thought robert said that there have been people using 8D on 6cyl's, so have they never caught this? Or have they and just not shared it? If they havent caught it, how does their engines run with the wrong value.

And also, If thats to get the correct number of cylinders, then how come tbi is also in there? If you change that to tbi, then how does the ecm/bin know what engine its running, doesnt it need to know if its running a V8, I4, V6, etc..?

Wait, are we talking about 0x09 or 0x293?

Edit: So if I changed my test harness bin to 192 for 6cyl, and thats when my cylinder select error started, then what did I change it to? If what you listed above is indeed for the 0x09 value, then I will change it to the proper value and retest and see what happens.

[RobertISaar]

guys, you're overthinking it....

there are multiple places in the BIN that define cylinder count.... some are for certain operations.

the one with the 0/128/192 is for engine speed and airflow calculations, the number itself is actually a 0-1 multiplier, 128 is half of 256, therefore, it's used for 4 cylinders. 192 is 6/8 of 256, therefore it's used for 8 cylinders.

the original calculations were done assuming a V8 engine(or at least that's the max GM wanted to be able to control) with 4 pulses per revolution on the reference circuit from the ICM, that's why the multiplier is needed. if you wanted to run a single cylinder, you could change it to 32, 64 for 2 cylinder, 96 for a 3 cylinder, etc....

the other one, the bit encoded value, that's for DTC and limp-home operation, and i think nothing else.



so, the XDF really needs to have both locations and both with tips if running anything other than a MPFI/TPI V8.

[dave w]

Just read that whole thread. My head is spinning just a bit. But by the end, it looks like yall found the same value that I did at 0x293. So using the 7427 tbi memcal, and changing that value to 18, you still got the cylinder select error? I have my test harness all laid out and ready to test, also have a few 7427 V8 tbi memcals. I have a couple of tbi injectors, but I do not have any of the resistors yall mention using to put between the injectors and the ecm. If you do not have a test harness set up at the moment, can give me instructions on what to do/change, I would be willing to help out out with testing. What did you end up using? If I am reading post number 120 correctly, you used $A1? it also looked like you were changing the cylinder number to 18, the 8D xdf I have says use 0 for 8cyl, 128 for 4cyl, and 192 for 6cyl. I'm thinking changing that value (0x09) to something other than those 3 values may not work right. Did you have sucess running a tbi engine with the 7727?
I would like to try some testing myself, if you can tell me what to do about resistors and the injectors, so I don't fry something.
I agree with yall that being able to run tbi with the 7727 would be handy for conversions.

I don't have a '7727 / '7730 harness for testing. I'll take you up on your offer to do some testing, it's greatly appreciated!

I ran out of time to do any further testing for a TBI '7727.

I used a memory adapter board with the '427 PCM TBI Memcal using a 27SF512 chip with the $8D .bin file. Resistors are not needed for testing when using Noid Lights or 4 TPI injectors on each bank. It should be Ok to not have injectors plugged in. The first test I'd like to have help with would be to set the $8D definition .bin file for cylinder hex value to the $18 Mark posted and see if the cylinder select error occurs? With my test, I got a cylinder select error with 0x293 set to hex $18.

Thanks,
dave w

[JeepsAndGuns]

guys, you're overthinking it....

there are multiple places in the BIN that define cylinder count.... some are for certain operations.

the one with the 0/128/192 is for engine speed and airflow calculations, the number itself is actually a 0-1 multiplier, 128 is half of 256, therefore, it's used for 4 cylinders. 192 is 6/8 of 256, therefore it's used for 8 cylinders.

the original calculations were done assuming a V8 engine(or at least that's the max GM wanted to be able to control) with 4 pulses per revolution on the reference circuit from the ICM, that's why the multiplier is needed. if you wanted to run a single cylinder, you could change it to 32, 64 for 2 cylinder, 96 for a 3 cylinder, etc....

the other one, the bit encoded value, that's for DTC and limp-home operation, and i think nothing else.



so, the XDF really needs to have both locations and both with tips if running anything other than a MPFI/TPI V8.

Ok, now I am really confused?
So are you saying the way in the xdf is correct, or the way mark posted is correct?
So is 192 correct to run 6cyl MPFI?

[RobertISaar]

in one location, yes. in another, no.

at 8293, you need 08.
at 8009, you need 192.

that should work with a 6 cylinder MPFI engine.

[JeepsAndGuns]

in one location, yes. in another, no.

at 8293, you need 08.
at 8009, you need 192.

that should work with a 6 cylinder MPFI engine.

Ok, thats what I have the test bench bin set to, and so far its working with no cylinder select error.