0411 running a 2.5L Jeep engine.

[Thorwon]

https://pcmhacking.net/forums/download/file.php?id=28096&t=1
This is a 1987 Jeep YJ with a 2.5L 4 cylinder engine. The first pic is where I was mocking up the late model port injection manifold in place of the throttle body injection. It also has a set of headman headers.


My plan is to run it on a 0411 with a V8 tune. I'm going to be turning off all the DTCs for those cylinders that are not used.


The first issue is the crankshaft reluctor.


I made one and mounted it on the front of the 4.0L six cyl Jeep engine in my 1988 MJ truck. I'm running it on a P59 using a V6 Bin. It runs so good I'm going to build a new engine to replace the one in it that has over 300,000 miles on it.


But I want to mount the CPS on this engine in the factory location. So after some measuring I've decided I can modify the flywheel to be the CPS reluctor.
I've laid out the flywheel to duplicate the V8 4X trigger wheel, 30deg on 90deg off (or maybe that's 30deg off 90deg on?).
https://pcmhacking.net/forums/download/file.php?id=28097




So I'll be cutting the shaded areas away as these are the off signal from the CPS. The first issue I've ran into is the old Jeep signal pattern leaves a gap where there should metal. So I'll have to warm up my welding skills, then have the flywheel rebalanced.
https://pcmhacking.net/forums/download/file.php?id=28098&t=1


I've got a 0411 with a 5.3L manual tune in it that I think I'm going to try. When I get the flywheel modified I'll up date the post.

[Thorwon]

I have a few questions for ya'll.
As you know from the title of the thread I'm going to run my 2.5L jeep on a 0411.
I have been setting it up to run on low res 4x crank trigger. But I have a 24x reluctor I can make a mount for on the balancer and plenty of room to build a sensor mount.
My first question is.
Do you think the 24x is worth doing?

What are the advantages of the 24x over the 4x?

If I use the 24x can I use coil near plug?

I have a 2000 1500 truck harness and computer I picked up at the u-pull it the other day. The OS is 09381344.
I have a 12212156 BIN and matching XDF I can load.

[dave w]

I can help you with your questions.

I found this '0411 4x crank YouTube video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQf9th9lcbA

dave w

[Thorwon]

I can help you with your questions.

I found this '0411 4x crank YouTube video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQf9th9lcbA

dave w

That's a good video and it lead to about 2 hours watching videos on 4x and 24x reluctors. LOL

Ok so 24x it is. Now I've got to find or build a reluctor. I think I want to build it. I've got to build a mount for it anyway. It'll probably be easier to design them together.
I've been looking at 24x reluctors and they are not neutral balanced or will be hard to mount or both.

So does it have to have the double pattern?

Or can that be modified to just one pattern?

[dave w]

Hmmm, http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?10712-For-Sale-SBC-24x-Trigger-Wheel-SCB-Coil-on-Plug

My daily driver 1999 S10 is V8 powered (L31) with an '0411 coil-on-plug conversion.

Challenge - Is a custom '0411 operating system required for the 4 cylinder engine? It's my understanding the '0411 was never used with a 4 cylinder engine.

[dave w]

Sometimes converting to fuel injection requires leveraging a fuel injection system from a similar engine. Back in the "hay day" of TBI there were many adaptions to non GM engines. The Nuts & Bolts of TBI was simple, easy, and well supported by the aftermarket. Fast Forward to OBD2 with Coil-on-Plug . . . so the question I would be asking myself "if I" wanted to convert a Jeep 2.5 to OBD2 fuel injection / coil-on-plug is . . . what GM Inline 4 Cylinder is OBD2 fuel injection / coil-on-plug that is CHEAP?

Does CHEAP mean only DIY software for Tuning? Does CHEAP mean No Aftermarket Support for EFI parts? Does CHEAP mean only junk yards have the "Nuts & Bolts"? Does CHEAP mean 10,000 plus likes on YouTube or Facebook?

It's your Jeep 2.5 liter engine, your in the drivers seat to determine CHEAP, not me.

[ralmo94]

Hmmm,
Challenge - Is a custom '0411 operating system required for the 4 cylinder engine? It's my understanding the '0411 was never used with a 4 cylinder engine.

He said in his first post that he was planning on using V8 tune with injectors disconnected. I was considering doing the same for a different i4 project, but lack of information from others that had, and needing a crank reluctor made me decide to do something different, but when researching I did find a number of others who have done it. Seems like I couldn't find for certain if rpm settings had to be modded, and which cylinders were deleted.
Anxious to see the outcome. :popcorn:

[Thorwon]

Sometimes converting to fuel injection requires leveraging a fuel injection system from a similar engine. Back in the "hay day" of TBI there were many adaptions to non GM engines. The Nuts & Bolts of TBI was simple, easy, and well supported by the aftermarket. Fast Forward to OBD2 with Coil-on-Plug . . . so the question I would be asking myself "if I" wanted to convert a Jeep 2.5 to OBD2 fuel injection / coil-on-plug is . . . what GM Inline 4 Cylinder is OBD2 fuel injection / coil-on-plug that is CHEAP?

Does CHEAP mean only DIY software for Tuning? Does CHEAP mean No Aftermarket Support for EFI parts? Does CHEAP mean only junk yards have the "Nuts & Bolts"? Does CHEAP mean 10,000 plus likes on YouTube or Facebook?

It's your Jeep 2.5 liter engine, your in the drivers seat to determine CHEAP, not me.

I have looked at GM Delco 4 cyl PCMs and the support just isn't there. I'm sure some of the guys over on the Delco board could do it, but I'm not that guy.
I've read a lot about the 0411 and think I can do this. Yes I know the 0411 was never put on a 4 cyl engine by GM.




He said in his first post that he was planning on using V8 tune with injectors disconnected. I was considering doing the same for a different i4 project, but lack of information from others that had, and needing a crank reluctor made me decide to do something different, but when researching I did find a number of others who have done it. Seems like I couldn't find for certain if rpm settings had to be modded, and which cylinders were deleted.
Anxious to see the outcome. :popcorn:

Yes I plan to run it on a V8 tune, so we'll see how it comes out.

[tayto]

HPTUNERS supports many GM 4 cylinder controllers. NA and turbo. This is one of those things where I am sure you can do it, but why would you... BTW, Hptuners also supports the 4.0L Jeeps for a few years now....

[Thorwon]

HPTUNERS supports many GM 4 cylinder controllers. NA and turbo. This is one of those things where I am sure you can do it, but why would you... BTW, Hptuners also supports the 4.0L Jeeps for a few years now....

I have HPtuners. I've just had bad experiences with them and don't want to give them anymore of my money.
My YJ is a 1987, nothing on it, as far as wiring, is much good.

[tayto]

i see, good luck with your project..worst case you can run a TPI ECU ('730) it will run 4 cylinder with 4 injectors and did so from the factory. Also came in a weather sealed engine compartment mounted ECU ('727). you could also run DIS, it's not CnP but is still not a bad system and cheap. guess it's not as cool as the LS stuff, but it's bee. hacked for a long time now.

[ralmo94]

Also if you go that route unless you go DIS, you don't need a crank trigger.
You could also run custom code, such as s_aujp, or code 59

[dave w]

I built a low resolution '0411 dual trigger distributor for SBC / BBC applications. The design is "bolt on" crank trigger parts for a L31 / L29 distributor. Maybe a similar low resolution dual trigger distributor could be used for a Jeep 4 cylinder bench test tool?

17777

17778

17779

Maybe the pictures below will be helpful for 24x Jeep 4 cylinder?

17780

17781

17782

17783

17784

[Rocko350]

only insight i have is if your running "every other" injector from the firing order, set the fueling to 1 bank. Kinda what we do on single turbo setups. It makes global changes to trims instead of bank to bank.

[Thorwon]

only insight i have is if your running "every other" injector from the firing order, set the fueling to 1 bank. Kinda what we do on single turbo setups. It makes global changes to trims instead of bank to bank.

Sounds interesting. So this would only need 1 O2 sensor?

[Thorwon]

I had the opportunity The last couple of days to make a little progress. I got the crank reluctor mounted and I think I've got the "0" position figured out.

Here's some pics of the reluctor and crank position sensor.
As soon as I can get the engine back in the Jeep I'll start running wires.

[1project2many]

That looks like a good start.

I have hopes and plans for a 4.0 Jeep using an OBDI GM controller, DIS, and a 2000+ block. I have tried obtaining a flywheel with an unmachined reluctor ring but have had no luck. Other thoughts are to put small steel blocks into the notches in the reluctor ring or to attempt to machine a new reluctor ring. What you're doing will likely be much faster.

If you're going to switch to bank injection on a single exhaust system there's no need for dual primary O2 sensors. If you don't need to monitor cat performance there's no need for a downstream O2 sensor. If you're disabling the MAF sensor and not using an E type GM transmission then much of the OBDII functionality will be unnecessary. This could be an interesting learning experience.

I will say that an OBDI ECM using four cylinder code might require fewer adjustments but it will require new software and hardware.

[Thorwon]

I'm going to be using the cam sensor from a 2004 4.0L engine. It's a drop in part and gives a 1x signal.

17843

I'm currently running a 4.0L in a 1988 Comanche on a P59.
I pulled it from a 2004 astro van that had a 4.3L V6.
I machined a 3x reluctor from a old skid pan. It runs pretty good for a 300K + engine.

[Thorwon]

That looks like a good start.

I have hopes and plans for a 4.0 Jeep using an OBDI GM controller, DIS, and a 2000+ block. I have tried obtaining a flywheel with an unmachined reluctor ring but have had no luck. Other thoughts are to put small steel blocks into the notches in the reluctor ring or to attempt to machine a new reluctor ring. What you're doing will likely be much faster.

If you're going to switch to bank injection on a single exhaust system there's no need for dual primary O2 sensors. If you don't need to monitor cat performance there's no need for a downstream O2 sensor. If you're disabling the MAF sensor and not using an E type GM transmission then much of the OBDII functionality will be unnecessary. This could be an interesting learning experience.

I will say that an OBDI ECM using four cylinder code might require fewer adjustments but it will require new software and hardware.

Here's a link to that thread.
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?10225-Inline-6-on-a-0411-pcm&highlight=Jeep+engine

[Thorwon]

I fired it up today. It sounds really good. It started pretty easy once I got every thing hooked up.
It's idling at about 1100 RPM but I expected it to be a little off from all the different sensors I'm using. I'm guessing at the RPM, I haven't hooked up the tach yet.
I have to run the OBD2 port wires so I can read the DTCs to see how it likes running on 4 coils and 4 injectors. And I've still got to hook up the exhaust, so it's loud. LOL

It went from this.
17890

To this.
17891

[1project2many]

Well done! The computer really doesn't care about what's it's running. As long as you are supplying signals that work with the hardware the ecm will do its best to run the program and produce an output. FWIW when I had my '95 2.5 I moved the crank sensor about 3 deg advanced which allowed me to drive at 70 on the highway with wide 30's and a hardtop. As far as I could tell Chrysler had done a good job overall with their timing curve.

[dave w]

I fired it up today. It sounds really good. It started pretty easy once I got every thing hooked up.
It's idling at about 1100 RPM but I expected it to be a little off from all the different sensors I'm using. I'm guessing at the RPM, I haven't hooked up the tach yet.
I have to run the OBD2 port wires so I can read the DTCs to see how it likes running on 4 coils and 4 injectors. And I've still got to hook up the exhaust, so it's loud. LOL

It went from this.
17890

To this.
17891

Congratulations :wtg:

[Thorwon]

Congratulations :wtg:
Dave can you tell me if the fan control wire is positive or ground? I can't remember.

[dave w]

Dave can you tell me if the fan control wire is positive or ground? I can't remember.

Fan "ON" is a "Ground Signal".

17892

I'm wondering if maybe the '0411 Four Cylinder Coil-On-Plug Ignition System will work without a Cam Position Sensor . . . Post #3 in this tread.

Likely the .bin file will still need Eight Cylinders and a Cylinder Volume equivalent to the Four Cylinder Volume?

dave w

[Thorwon]

Fan "ON" is a "Ground Signal".

17892

I'm wondering if maybe the '0411 Four Cylinder Coil-On-Plug Ignition System will work without a Cam Position Sensor . . . Post #3 in this tread.

Likely the .bin file will still need Eight Cylinders and a Cylinder Volume equivalent to the Four Cylinder Volume?

dave w

Once I get things straight on this thing I plan to play with it.

I'm looking at it like this.
I have a 2.5L engine, I'm running it on a PCM that thinks it's running a 5.3L engine.
The 2.5L is half of the 5.3L (about). I'm using 1/2 of the injectors and 1/2 the ignition.
Each O2 sensor is getting 2.5L of exhaust (both are in the same pipe could lead to issues ???)
Cylinder volume is the same in both engines (close). It's going to put the same amount of fuel to each cylinder.
The biggest issue I foresee is the MAF will be looking for twice the air flow it's going to get. And I haven't figured out how to delete it yet.
I know it can be done, so I've got to learn how.

[dave w]

Perhaps adjusting the MAF Tables for 2.5 Liter is an option? Possibly "half" the grams per second V8 vs. Four Cylinder?

Perhaps check timing with a timing light that has a "dial indicator" for degrees of advance? The '0411 spark table is Grams Cylinder vs. RPM (MAF vs. RPM)



From EFI Live Tutorial:
Going MAFless
When fitting a 2 or 3-bar MAP sensor you must disable the MAF sensor. It is possible to leave the MAF sensor in place. This will need to be done on the 85mm MAF as the Intake Temp Sensor is located in the MAF housing. Alternatively, you could relocate the IAT using on older style IAT sensor. Even with the MAF still in place, the PCM must be forced to ignore the MAF signal.
To disable the MAF sensor:
Set the Engine Diagnostics->Engine Diagnostics->MAF->Parameters:
 {C2901} MAF High Frequency Fail 1: 1Hz
 {C2902} MAF High Frequency Fail 2: 1Hz If calibration {C2902} is not available in the operating system that you are using, then ignore this step.
 {C2903} MAF High Frequency Fail Limit: 1
 {C2907} MAF Test Min Engine Speed: 300 RPM
 {C2908} MAF Test Min Run Time: 0.1 seconds
Set the Engine Diagnostics->Engine DTC processing Enablers:
 P0101 ‘C’ Non Emissions
 P0102 ‘C’ Non Emissions
 P0103 ‘C’ Non Emissions

Set the Engine Diagnostics->Engine DTC MIL Enablers:
 P0101 ‘No MIL’
 P0102 ‘No MIL’
 P0103 ‘No MIL’
When going MAFless and/or boosted on vehicles with Electronic Throttle Control, you will most likely need to increase {C6101} ETC Predicted Airflow, by significant amounts to stop the PCM going into reduced power mode.
Set the Transmission Diagnostics->Transmission DTC Fault Max Pressure Enablers
 P0101 ‘No’
 P0102 ‘No’
 P0103 ‘No’

Set the Transmission Diagnostics->Transmission Failsafe Enablers:
 Set all airflow related enablers to ‘No’ to prevent the transmission from going into failsafe mode due to the MAF being disabled.

[Thorwon]

I given up on using the Jeep throttle body. I just can't get the IAC to work with the GM computer.
The lowest I can get it to idle is @1100 and it's always changing 100 -200 RPM.
I made an adaptor for the throttle body I have from a 2004 4.3L V6 and it works good so far.
It's idling at 650 -700 RPM just like it should be. I'll be installing my wide band and gauge tomorrow so I can start tuning it.
I've turned the MAF off for the moment. I've never done that before and just wanted to see how much it affects it.

After putting the GM throttle body on this engine and how it responded, I think I need to get another one for my 4.0L in my truck, that I'm running on a P59.

[1project2many]

I given up on using the Jeep throttle body. I just can't get the IAC to work with the GM computer.

When I put the 7749 into my Toyota I grafted on the IAC adapter plate from a 4.0 TB. I ended up switching out the Jeep IAC for a GM IAC. You've already made your adapter but if you'd like I will see if I can find the number of the IAC I used.

[Thorwon]

When I put the 7749 into my Toyota I grafted on the IAC adapter plate from a 4.0 TB. I ended up switching out the Jeep IAC for a GM IAC. You've already made your adapter but if you'd like I will see if I can find the number of the IAC I used.

That would be great info to have. So yep if you can find it I'd love to have that part number.
If ya got a pic of the way you mounted it, I'd like to see that too.

[Thorwon]

Here's a short video of it running.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/kIXigekwo-A

[1project2many]

That would be great info to have. So yep if you can find it I'd love to have that part number.
If ya got a pic of the way you mounted it, I'd like to see that too.

Sure. The pictures of the TB modification are blurry so I apologize for that. But it should show what I did.
http://home.metrocast.net/~shannen/yota/22RTE/TBinstall/Toyota_TB_01.html

It looks like I didn't keep the receipt for the IAC valve that I used. But I wrote down the following IAC part numbers to compare to the Jeep part:
217-419
19333272
17113209

[Thorwon]

Sure. The pictures of the TB modification are blurry so I apologize for that. But it should show what I did.
http://home.metrocast.net/~shannen/yota/22RTE/TBinstall/Toyota_TB_01.html

It looks like I didn't keep the receipt for the IAC valve that I used. But I wrote down the following IAC part numbers to compare to the Jeep part:
217-419
19333272
17113209

Very nice.
Were you running it on a 0411 or is it a Delco?

[1project2many]

Thank you,

I used a 1227749 OBD1 Syclone / Typhoon ecm.

I found a thread where folks using Megasquirt to replace the OE ECM on a 4.0L switched to the 217-419 b/c they couldn't get the idle controls to work properly.
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=124884

Sounds like your engine is in pretty good shape. Jeep 2.5's do not like to die.

[Thorwon]

Thank you,

I used a 1227749 OBD1 Syclone / Typhoon ecm.

I found a thread where folks using Megasquirt to replace the OE ECM on a 4.0L switched to the 217-419 b/c they couldn't get the idle controls to work properly.
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=124884

Sounds like your engine is in pretty good shape. Jeep 2.5's do not like to die.

I'll look into that IAC.
My dad rebuilt it completely about 8 years ago. My son got it from him and drove it while he was in high school.
I'd bet it doesn't have 20K on it since it was rebuilt.

[Thorwon]

I've found a place that'll laser cut parts. So I sent them this drawing (the PDF) to see how good they do. I ordered 4 of them and it was under $100. That included zinc plating.

I'm pleased to report the parts are very nice. They came in a blister pack and well protected.

Now I need to know. Can use this reluctor with the 0411 as long as I use the correct CPS.

I'm hoping to be able get back to this little project next week. I'll post results when I can.



1885218853

[dave w]

I've found a place that'll laser cut parts. So I sent them this drawing (the PDF) to see how good they do. I ordered 4 of them and it was under $100. That included zinc plating.

I'm pleased to report the parts are very nice. They came in a blister pack and well protected.

Now I need to know. Can use this reluctor with the 0411 as long as I use the correct CPS.

I'm hoping to be able get back to this little project next week. I'll post results when I can.



1885218853

Often the acronym for cam position sensor is CMP.

Your crank trigger looks very much like the expensive one pictured below.
18855

[Thorwon]

Often the acronym for cam position sensor is CMP.

Your crank trigger looks very much like the expensive one pictured below.
18855

That's what I'm trying to duplicate.
I have the CMP covered. It's the CPS (crank position sensor) that I want to make sure I have the correct one for this trigger.
I know the factory Vortec 24x trigger is what I have been trying to use and it has a different sensor than the aftermarket 24x one.