Can I get some eyes

[srobertsfsj]

Hey guys, been a while. I finally got my Jeep back on the road and made my first offroad trip out to Ouray, CO last week. The TBI performed much better then I expected. However, I didn't get a chance to do any tuning before I left. While I was jeeping I noticed that the Jeep was running a little lean, which it wasn't before I left. The only thing that changed was I turned on EGR and the AIR Diverter settings so I am assuming this is why it is running lean since the recommendations I have seen is to turn off EGR when tuning. Anyway, I made a nice long tunning run this morning before work and got that inputed into the bin.

What I need some help with is trying to figure out where my top end power is. Driving on the mountain roads to get to the trails I noticed that I was really lacking in power trying to get up some of the hills. Much less then when I had the carb. The tunning run I made this morning had some highway hills on it so I was hoping that I can get a more experienced person to take a look at my log and bin to see if I am missing something. The fuel pump and alternator are brand new so (for now) I am assuming its not a fuel pressure or voltage issue. Let me give you a little background on the Jeep:

86 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
Engine - 2bbl AMC 360 with mild cam
Axles - 4.10 gears
Tires - 35" KM2 MT's
Fuel Delivery - Brand new In-tank fuel pump from a 90 Chevy pickup in a 33gal tank
Optional TBI sensors used - VSS, EGR, 7-pin HEI
XDF File - $42-1227747-V4.3.xdf
ADX File - $42-1227747-V4.2.adx

Thanks for the help!

[srobertsfsj]

Also, I just noticed that when I paste my new VE table into the bin and click save, that the new values are not being saved. I thought I remember this happening before but I forgot why it was doing it. I clicked the save button for both the parameter and the bin file...

[EagleMark]

Nice work on the added history tables! :thumbsup:

But I think we are going to have to change your name to "Sparky" or "Knock" :yikes: ... first thing I would do is not run engine anymore, then pull the spark plugs and use a magnifying glass and look for specks on the plugs!

[srobertsfsj]

I turned the knock off awhile ago. From what I understand the AMC engines are noisy.

[EagleMark]

OK but your spark advance table looks more like an LT1 then an AMC... 35 degrees at idle? This looks like a 454 bin to start so warm spark bias is 0, now if it were 9.84 like a 5.7L bin you could be OK. But you are still adding 2.11 degrees PE spark and 5.05 Spark slope which puts you into 42 degrees advance in some areas of acceleration!. Your spark table is already very high without these adders.

You really have me worried here!

Take out 10 degrees from your entire table and see how it runs, this will also give an indication of real or false knock counts from first log.

[srobertsfsj]

I will give that a try, did you see my comment above about tunerpro not saving the VE table? I hit save, it closes the parameter window, I open the table back up and none of the changes are there. :(

[EagleMark]

Yes but was very concerned on spark table after I was watching knock counts.

Are you trying to add VE1 and VE2? They will add up to over 100 and be cut back to 99.6. Or sometimes it is adjusted to an acceptable hex equivilent but close to what you put in. If your trying to paste an entire table it has to be exact as table being pasted too. What exactly is happening?

[srobertsfsj]

I am pasting the whole table from the VE Correction spreadsheet into the "VE as % (FL1) *Same as above*" table. This is how I had been doing it before and it worked fine. I dont think anything adds up to over 100. all the columns and rows match the spreadsheet to the parameter table.

2801

[EagleMark]

Just probably the way you are copying the table. If your a little off it does not work. In spreadsheet try clicking on right bottom cell, then hold shift key and click on left top cell, this will highlight the entire table, copy or Ctrl C, then do the same in TP VE table and paste or Ctrl V.

[srobertsfsj]

ok figured out my screw up. I forgot to paste the current VE table into the spreadsheet, I had only pasted the BLM table. It's save now, thanks Mark! I will give the new spark table a try and report back, anything else you see wrong with my bin? The reason I set my base idle to 10 is that I just cannot get it to idle right if I set it to 0 deg.

[EagleMark]

Didn't look to hard other then that? Try above, also may want to put a timing light on it and see where timing actually is at timing marks and compare to what data says?

Do you have a large cap HEI distributor?

[srobertsfsj]

yes I am running the large cap with the 7-pin module.

[EagleMark]

Then you spark latency is also wrong and timing can be as much as 11 degrees off as well. Do you have a GM EST module or aftermarket? If you say aftermarket just get a GM and tell me GM...

[EagleMark]

Here is the GM spark Latency table for $42, although it never came in $42 bin files.


0.00
0.00
213.64
274.68
305.20
244.16
274.68
244.16
305.20
320.46
289.94
305.20
305.20


I put it in your bin for you so you can compare.

[srobertsfsj]

Then you spark latency is also wrong and timing can be as much as 11 degrees off as well. Do you have a GM EST module or aftermarket? If you say aftermarket just get a GM and tell me GM...

LOL, I believe its an ACCEL module, does GM make a 7-pin? I went with the 7-pin because I couldn't figure out how to make stock 8-pin work with the HEI and I couldnt find any diagrams.

[EagleMark]

Yes there are GM large cap HEI distributors made for EFI. I beleive 1990 Corvette would be a lookup... Yup found it on RockAuto.
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=1393025

I wonder if ACCEL would give you Spark Latency Corrections numbers for their module? Probably not in the book the tech support person reads...

[srobertsfsj]

Do you think this one will work as well as the AC Delco? http://napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=MPETP47SB_0305897904

[CDeeZ]

I would think so.

I used to try to have only ACDelco or Delphi parts for things of this nature for a long time, but anymore alot of the Delco stuff is made overseas and is probably no better than anything else.

[EagleMark]

They will all work! Problem is GM is the only one we know what Spark Latency Correction is for. So it's the only one we can get timing close for. Even it is not perfect but never been an issue. Aftermarket ones have been tested and dialed in with hours of work to show huge differences in timing that can vary with RPM to who knows what where? So yes they can be done without real testing if your knock sensor is working. Does not mean your timing table will be actual timing, it's just a can of worms.

This is probably the most important part of an ignition system. Get a GM/AC Delco, it will last longer then your rig for $50.

Till then back off your timing and check timing at 1000 rpm to data, 1500 RPM to data, 2000 rpm to data etc to as far as you feel comfortable revving the engine with your face in belts and fan (wear safety glasses please)... and see where your timing really is? You'll need a timing tape or a dial back timing light too...

You have way to many variables right now to be running that much timing without knock retard! Actually if you knew everything was perfect and timing table was accurate I still think your way to much for that motor, let alone in a heavy truck. Pull ten degrees from the entire table, that's pretty drastic for me to say that, use the latency table I gave you and do a log run, we can see real quick if all those knock counts are false. Looking at your timing table I believe them to be true. This would not be good with knock retard being disabled...

I looked at your log a little more and BLMs are all real close. I did notice no readings above 80 MAP? Are you at a really high elevation? Did you really never go near WOT? Or have a restrictive air intake? Or do you have a MAP sensor issue? Pull the air cleaner and do a WOT run, MAP should go higher then 80 kpa?

You may have a MAP sensor issue? Your idling at 50 kpa MAP = 13 inches vacuum? That's a big cam or high elevation or an issue? With 35 degrees advance? Lets see where that ends up with less timing?

[srobertsfsj]

I didn't realize the aftermarket units had that issue. I dont mind swapping to a GM unit if it performs better, its just a pain to re-wire. I live at 5300ft and yes my test drive this morning took me up a few hundred more feet. Vacuum is usually around 13 to 15 for this engine and elevation. Leaving work in a few will report my run when I get home. Thanks for the help!

[EagleMark]

I thought you had a 7 pin? Gm has a 7 pin... do you have a 4 pin? You can actually get rid of it altogether and wire in a newer small cap 7 pin.

Anyway all moot points if you have a stock engine and only rev to what your log showed, any EST/ICM can be tuned, just by brail as you don't know what actual/acurate timing is unless you check by timing light. Bin will not be accurate. Data is also off. Yours has spots over 50 degrees advance...

[srobertsfsj]

I had a 4pin HEI before I started the TBI upgrade. I installed a 7pin with the TBI. I have an adjustable timing light with built in tach, just hard to adjust throttle and keep light on the mark.

I couldn't do a long drive home today because I had to get to my son but it was running really lean due to the timing changes. I would almost stall if I gave gas too fast. I made some VE adjustments and will do another long run in the morning.

[EagleMark]

it was running really lean due to the timing changes. You took out 10 degrees timing and it went lean? I'm not sure what to make of that... and it was running good on that first log? I'm confused... have you ever watched timing at balencer on this engine? Is it 35ish at idle and drop when accelerated?

Stick differant thickness of feeler gauges in throttle stop screw to keep engine reved and check timing. Start with idle...

[srobertsfsj]

Attached is the short log I got on the way home. I only changed the timing (minus 10deg in all cells) and the latency changes that you sent me.

Also, I dont know if you remember from awhile back but the other issue is that my idle in park/neutral is at 1250rpm and I cannot for the life of my figure out why, I dont even have the PK/N wire hooked up....

Must have something to do with KPA, IAC or temp but I cannot find any parameters that change the RPM to 1250, its been very frustrating. When I put the Jeep it drive it drops right down to my idle rpm. I am assuming that if I ever figure why this is happing it might be contributing to some of my performance issues.

[EagleMark]

Didn't Dave say the Park/Neutral wire needs to be grounded? Yes they will idle higher if Open Loop..., that's why I always run CL Idle on these 1227747 ECM.

[srobertsfsj]

So I did another long run this morning with the timing changes and I did see an improvement with mid and top end power BUT now the Jeep almost stalls on take off and it runs warmer at idle. Also, there is a steep grade as part of my route and I noticed less power and a temp increase. I attached the log from the run.

You asked about my timing table and if you look at the docs below this is why its so high. Keep in mind they also recommend at high altitude to go 1 deg advanced for every 1000ft about sea level. My question is since this is all based on vacuum and mechanical advance, do I just throw this out the window since I have TBI? I think my performance issues are definitely timing related but I just don't know where to start. I do like your suggestion of verifying the timing, I will give that a try this weekend. Do you have any tips or a quick procedure for this?



https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ibJI0ro8FvI/TsKt8KXiFOI/AAAAAAAACd0/ZdiTKqy1Fic/s1024/IMG_0056.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-UVC6HDlxvZo/TsKt8LoYpUI/AAAAAAAACdY/lRcvFphK7Wk/s912/IMG_0057.JPG

[srobertsfsj]

I also noticed a definite decrease in knock count and using the dash my BLM numbers look spot on.

[EagleMark]

Even with that you've got to much mid range and not enough top end now? Slope is just off. Plus I'm n ot used to using a BB bin without the warm spark Bias, I even change BB to what I'm used to using.

Using factory timing tables in EFI conversion is a good start for idle and acceleration, but not optimal for other areas like deceleration. Yes you can get way more performance from spark timing with EFI, getting fuel right is easy.

Your run away knock counts are because you have the TPS% hack enabled. If you turn that off you should try the knock sensor. It's really only meant for true TPS at idle to watch for some paremeter transitions, not to be left on. I have it better commented in next version.

Your timing is all over the place, some cells 8 when should be 20, others OK and some 88 and 98 numbers which I know is wrong? Changes of timing fo 15 degrees from one cell to next? Difference between low and high of 20 degrees?

Been looking at this and posting for hours now inbetween other stuff, go back to PC and find this! :laugh:

Had some time so I compared this to others because of what's noted above, the more I looked at your data, the more I compared to a known good running data, the more I think you have an ignition issue, not just timing... I checked 3 known good logs and none have the dramatic differnces yours does not including the 88 and 98 degree spike. I compared your bin to others looking for something corrupt and nothing? If I had this in my hands I would be checking all wiring related to ignition, connections, grounds, verifying where timing really is, started with another bin which I'll give you if you want to try, already would have had the Accel module replaced and checked the pickup coil in distributor.

Your lucky day, my job for this morning cancelled... :rolleye:

Here's a bin I know runs well in a 304 AMC with large cap HEI, I changed it to your 360. It has all fuel in VE1, all spark in main advance table so no PE or RPM adders, HyWay lean is installed but turned off for now, your TCC won't lock up anymore..., I think I fixed your idle issue but will still rev higher when cold until CL, raised your idle by 50 RPM because of your altitude and low vacuum, EGR off, Air off. Not sure if I got everything the way you had it but this should run well as is to start. Please keep it to yourself. I'll attatch the newest versions of $42 defs I've been working on which you can share.

Try it if you care to as is and do a log, lets see if there was an issue in your bin we could not find. If the spark advance data is the same, which I think will be the case we have something wrong with ignition?

Oh! Timing is set to 0, there is really no reason for this engine to need 10 degrees, this may also be the ignition issue. If you do need more base timing because of it being a conversion and more likely your elevation then you should add it to timing table. Unless you have a big cam you haven't mentioned?

[srobertsfsj]

First off, thank you very very much for taking so much time on these issues I am having. I know it takes a lot of your time and your knowledge is very much appreciated. Conceptually, everything you have said makes perfect sense but for me, it sometimes take a bit to put all the pieces in order before I understand it fully. That is where I am at now. I would much rather learn how things work so I can fix it myself then someone just give me the answers, hopefully I haven't come across that way. But having someone your experience helps speed up the learning process. I have spent alot of time data logging and making tweaks and changing parameters to see what they do, unfortunately there is just so many variables its hard to keep track sometimes. I will get it tho! And when I do I will share the knowledge for sure :)


That being said I wanted to respond to some of your questions and ask some about the bin you sent:

First off I like the pretty colors in the VE and SA tables, I will have to see how you did that. In the def file I assume?

To address the base timing, I tried like heck when I was first setting this up to set the base timing to 0 but the jeep would not idle at all and IIRC it wouldn't even start. Not sure if that is just the way these engine are. Does the system retard the timing on startup? I know the Chevy's work well at 0 base timing but I just had issues trying to use 0 for some reason and I have heard others with AMC engines say the same. Maybe I will try to set it back to 0 but I should probably wait until I do before I try running the bin you sent.

The cam in this engine is an aftermarket cam but from what I understand its a "mild" one.

Looking at the bin you sent, I did have EGR turned on, really just because it was my understanding that it reduces combustion temps and can bring engine temp down. Overheating on the trails is one of my biggest pet peeves. But I understand for tuning purposes it should be turned off? Does it make that much of a difference?

I didnt even noticed that the TPS hack was on, that is my fault, I didnt notice it was on and to be honest I don't remember what it was for. I remember reading about it before I did all the work on the jeep but that was a few months ago and I haven't touched the TBI since.

You said you think you fixed the idle issue, what specifically do you think is causing it, its been driving me nuts for sure.

[EagleMark]

You've been trying hard and helping others so I'm glad to help. I also learn the more I help, I never stop learning and can always be proven wrong or shown another way. I wish I could type and explain as good as i can tune and diagnose hands on or understand how these things really work inside like RBob or read dissesemblys like Robert Saar or, or, or... I'm blessed to have them as freinds which helps me. Please don't give me all credit, I'm just part of it all. But I'm more a GearHead then a technical nerd. I have a routine and just whip through it, know what should be and what shouldn't be and know how to fix it. Quick funny story... I turned and changed direction last week and dam near knocked an old guy down whos truck I was working on... he laughed and said "I should keep a little distance eh?" We laughed, I do warn people I charge double if they help! Because it takes me 4 times longer... Anyway I really enjoy it so it's not like real work...

I'll try an answer some things if I miss something let me know.

Colors in tables work by setting alarms in the parameter.

EGR does not hurt, I thought yours was gone, there are a lot of ways to turn it off so you may have done it differently. It does reduce combustion chamber temps, but I can't see it helping cooling temps. EGR will not ever come on on the trail.

Mild cam is still a little less vacuum, but combined with your elevation it's worse, unless you did not degree the cam when installing it and it's off and that would explain the low vacuum and idle timing issues. Big cams are like EGR at idle, so more timing, like when EGR is active.

You are more active with the AMC crowd so maybe there is a need for more timing at idle, but I've been getting by with 0 and adding in the spark table. Just a routine to set timing at 0, unless it's a cammed monster then 5... not that I am right, just what I do and has worked.

1227747 has idle issues, no real adjustments if not in Closed Loop, I saw tell tale signs of your bin being one that stays OL or, goes closed loop harder and one setting that has an open loop high temp setting. If you compare you'll find a few differences, I'll point them out later, I have one bin I built based off ASDU I always start with for $42 for all engines with other changes of course and it has served me well. Now you have one and I hope it helps you get back to tuning. It just takes out uncertainties.

I still think you have an ignition issue though. But if that bin is OK then I'd like to see data to disprove your bin had an issue causing the spark advance weirdness?

[srobertsfsj]

ok good news! Ran your bin on the way home only changing Initial SA and Bias warm. Why change bias warm to 0? Well, to be honest, IIRC is was FSJ Guy that advised me to set it to 0 and I believe he had a good reason which escapes me at the moment. Maybe he will chime in. Other then BLM being in the 140's and 150's the entire time it did run better, well different at least. I think i just need to do some VE tuning and it will be good to go there. I will do a long run in the morning.

Then, based on what you said earlier I just decided to set the Bias Warm to 10 and what do you know!!!! My idle issue in pk/n went away! Idles at about 950 now instead of 1250....The only thing i noticed is that it has to crank a bit to start. Not sure why yet but at least its something!

So its my understanding that the Bias Warm setting subtracts from the main SA table. Is this doing this in O/L and C/L or just C/L? Also, how does this parameter relate to the initial SA? If I set this to 10 and I change my initial SA to 0 does that mean that on startup it will retard 10 deg from 0? I dont think these engines like be that retarded on startup. I guess I need a quick tutorial on the purpose of these Bias settings.

[EagleMark]

It does it all the time. It effects so many paremeters... there are so many things that should not be changed. I thought of making a new catagory in the $42 XDF for "Only Change These!"

Leave the warm bias alone! That is the way the bin works. If the bin started with 0 warm bias work with it, if it started with 9.84 Warm Spark Bias then work with it. If you change a Bias from 9.84 to 0 then everything in bin is off by 9.84 degrees! Do you know every other paremeter that adds or subtracts from main spark table and how the Bias effects it? I don't and would not even try to, no need to. When I saw your first bin I assumed it started as a 7.4L bin as they have 0 degree spark bias. Both have 20 degree Cold Spark Bias.

Spark bias is to allow negitive numbers, everything is off by "Warm Spark Bias" or "Cold Start Bias" so negitive numbers can happen without being entered, it won't work if you enter -3, "-" is not usable or convertable to hex.

Initial Timing or Base Timing is where the distributor is set. It is supposed to be 0 and the timing table works. If set to 10 then everything is off by 10 so Initial Timing paremeter is set to 10 to take it off and not allow TO MUCH TIMING! Max timing is 41.84 degrees because there is just not enough room between spark plug terminals on cap, 360 degrees and math. Now you added 10 and POOF or better yet BOOM, your firing the wrong cylinder.

Now consider all the other Bias, adder, subtractors, AE spark, PE Spark, Decel Sparl, DFCO, Spark, EGR Spark... ahhhhhh! :yikes:

This bin is set to be used at 0 base timing, if you need more for solid idle then add it to timing table. Adding to base timing should not be messed with unless your trying to make a huge cam with overlap, like EGR at idle and need more idle timing which I have used 45 degrees (Bias makes this not actual), this is more then available so we need to start adding to base timing. Then all the other complications start!

You can change to much in a bin and it no longer works properly. Change as little as possible and know what else it effects if you change something. One change to fix something can cause 10 other issues.

Now that your idle is closer and things are Biased properly you may be able to set base timning to 0 and see more idle improvements! :rockon:

[srobertsfsj]

I think that would be awesome if you make a bin that says only changes these!!!! That way people like myself can start out with much less confusion and probably learn quicker.

Anyway, tried to make a long run this morning. I thought I would give your bin a try and see what happens. The only thing I changed was the initial SA (only because I haven't set base timing to 0 yet). I also had to bump up the VE, table wide about 2.5 to get it not to run so lean. I had to cut the run short because only a mile or two down the highway my engine temp quickly got up almost 210deg, and I didnt have any low,mid or high range power at all. I pulled over to the side of road and switched to a previous bin. Also, I noticed that the TCC show locked about 90% of the time. I thought it was turned off in this bin but I guess not. Attached is the short log from this morning.

I think I will try to set the base timing to 0 this evening and give it another try.

Also, I found out the cam in this engine is a Comp Cams 260H.

[EagleMark]

So it ran OK yesterday and you changed 10 degress today and ran bad?

That cam is not mild or RV, it is almost limits of EFI into hard tuning! Did you degree it when installed?

[srobertsfsj]

I ran OK yesterday with the 0 bias warm and the Initial SA at 10. I changed the bias warm to 10 this morning and had the issues.

I spoke to the PO of the engine and he said he was pretty sure that the cam was degreed.

[EagleMark]

OK if you want to figure out what's going on you need to stop changing things. That bin was set to work as is with bias settings and 0 degree base timing and I'll know what's happening. Right now your adding and subtracting 10 degrees from all over the place. Your logs show some ignition timing issues and we haven't even checked timing a timing marks yet. We have to get some baseline data to work with. I know what that bin will do, but not with all the changes, I was trying to rule out this ignition timing issue as bin related. See the method to my madness?

That cam specs are 1000 or 1200 RPM and up, not idle and up. So at 600 RPM idle and an auto? Your going to have some lack of power from idle to 1000 to 12000 with a stock tourque converter. This also explians the low vacuum at idle compounded by elevation. Idle spark may need to be increased as well as idle RPM as much as you can handle. When running better idle will not be revved high like the issue you were having if done correctly getting into closed loop, we can try and get open loop idle down as well.

Knowing the cam now you could change base timing to 5 at distributor and bin. Are all the AMC guys adding 10 degrees to base timing and setting warm bias to 10? That just makes idle timing the same. But skews all other timing like we discussed.

The changes you made to VE don't make sense either, you said you needed to add everywhere? Should have been less at idle and lower RPM with that cam compared to milder cam it was tuned for.

Need a starting point!

[srobertsfsj]

I definitely see the method to your maddness. My plan for the weekend is to start over basically, I am going to verify my timing first and see if how far off it is, if any. Then I should probably adjust my base timing to 0 or 5 like you said.

Looking at the bin you made. You turned off the TPS% hack but turned on the BPW and SA hacks, is this correct? In an earlier post you mention the TCC not locking up anymore, on this last run the TCC showed locked most of time when I was on the highway, is this an issue?

[shimniok]

I'm the PO of the engine. :) A few points of information that may or may not help.

I had the engine rebuilt. The shop degrees cams as part of the basic rebuild. They told me they did. So, supposedly they did but lack of power on the mountain passes made me wonder and I let Scott know that it might be something to check when he got the motor.

Without fully understanding the nuances of GM EFI timing, from a carburetor, duraspark, AMC 360 standpoint, I haven't had much luck with an AMC motor idling at 0 degrees actual timing (no vacuum advance). We usually set them around 16 actual (no vacuum advance, but with mechanical advance) to get a decent idle.

Eagerly watching this and other threads because I'll be neck deep in this soon. Learning as fast as I can.

Michael

[EagleMark]

I definitely see the method to your maddness. My plan for the weekend is to start over basically, I am going to verify my timing first and see if how far off it is, if any. Then I should probably adjust my base timing to 0 or 5 like you said.

Looking at the bin you made. You turned off the TPS% hack but turned on the BPW and SA hacks, is this correct? In an earlier post you mention the TCC not locking up anymore, on this last run the TCC showed locked most of time when I was on the highway, is this an issue?Yes we want those 2 on and will not effect knock counts or other useful data.

I may have goofed on TCC? I'll look at it...

[EagleMark]

I'm the PO of the engine. :) A few points of information that may or may not help.

I had the engine rebuilt. The shop degrees cams as part of the basic rebuild. They told me they did. So, supposedly they did but lack of power on the mountain passes made me wonder and I let Scott know that it might be something to check when he got the motor.

Without fully understanding the nuances of GM EFI timing, from a carburetor, duraspark, AMC 360 standpoint, I haven't had much luck with an AMC motor idling at 0 degrees actual timing (no vacuum advance). We usually set them around 16 actual (no vacuum advance, but with mechanical advance) to get a decent idle.

Eagerly watching this and other threads because I'll be neck deep in this soon. Learning as fast as I can.

MichaelThanks for sharing info so we can work this out.

When we speak of timing set to 0 it is base timing, where distributor is set. When set and bypass wire reconnected timing is controlled by ECM, just looked at his timing table and if LEFT ALONE :laugh: it comes out to 15.5ish although the timing table says 25.5ish... back to leaving Warm Bias alone which takes out 10. So good baseline to start with your AMC engine experiance. I'm guessing stock as a cam like this usually likes more. Also do you know what vacuum advance adds on these? Right now we are at 15 without vacuum added...

[srobertsfsj]

This weekend I also plan to pull a couple of plugs and see how much damage I have done running to too advanced and lean for awhile :)

[shimniok]

So good baseline to start with your AMC engine experiance. I'm guessing stock as a cam like this usually likes more. Also do you know what vacuum advance adds on these? Right now we are at 15 without vacuum added...

I recall it being in the ballpark of another 10-15 at idle.

[EagleMark]

That would have been about 10 to 15 less then what he had and 10 short of where he is. Thanks!

[shimniok]

Well... I might be low on my estimate for vacuum advance. :( I am looking in my TSM (84 but should be applicable)

Mechanical ranges to between 14° and 19° total at 4400rpm. Vacuum advance is 21°-27° at between 11-13 in-Hg (allowable ranges). Base timing is 16° at this altitude. So is this vacuum curve the total advance or is it added to the mechanical advance?

2813

[EagleMark]

I'm not sure what to make of that graph? There's got to be some more info?

[EagleMark]

I looked up some Jeep timing for the 360 and came up with a lot of differant numbers between 75 up from 2.5 advance to 10 advance, the one that goes with the graph you show is 10 or 15 at altitude. Bottom line is none were higher then around 38 degrees total. One 304 for 49 state was 44.5 while CA was 38.

So total of 38, then some distributor machine test numbers, mechanical advance max of 16 and vacuum advance max of 8.5.
16+8.5=24.5 from total of 38 = 13.5 base

Which is equivilent to just about any engine from that time from factory to meet emmissions = the timing table in the bin I gave him is well within safety margins of me trying to help while not there in person = plenty of room to add some timing.

= run the bin as is, don't worry about BLM right now and don't worry about idle. Get some data. With your cam and altitude we can work on idle with spark and fuel.

Start data fully warmed up and driven a little.

[srobertsfsj]

I plan on doing a lot of checking wires and testing this weekend. I am even going to buy an AC Delco module and try and swap it out. If anything, I will at least have a spare.

On the 360 timing numbers you found, I am sure you know, but some people think that the AMC 360 and the Dodge 360 are the same engine. They are completely different, I have had people swear up and down they are the same lol.

[EagleMark]

You have no idea how many times I've heard a Scout II came with a 304 AMC motor too...

Although most engines from that time are simalar as far as timing. Still does not mean it's optimum. Just what works good for drivabilty and emmissions.

[shimniok]

Thanks for looking up the timing info. I was just about to crack the TSM again. Anyway the numbers you post all seem plausible.

The other thing I've occasionally heard is it's a Ford 360... well, ok, there's lots of Ford electronics on the motor but... :) Then there's the AMC 327 that showed up in the early Jeeps that folks confuse with the Chebby of the same displacement... Those two motors are so unalike it'd be impossible to mix them up if you looked at 'em.

I have heard some IH Travelalls came with an AMC 401, though, and I haven't heard any disputes on that yet.

At least with a 345 there's little mistaking it for anyone else's motor.

[EagleMark]

Yes the Travelall came with an AMC 401 and the scout came with an AMC 258. The 258 was for fuel milage and weight at the time and the 401 was because of a shortage of 392 engines.

People just use the most well known or known to them and think that is what it is. They have no idea what the actual motor looks like. I actually thought a Jeep 327 was a chevy about 10 years ago, had no idea jeep made one, till I popped the hood...

[srobertsfsj]

Ok, set the base timing to 0 deg and loaded the bin you sent with no changes, here is what I found:

-Checked a couple of plugs and they looked good actually
-Checked the HEI 7-pin module I have installed and it is a BWD stock replacement unit and NOT an Accel aftermarket, the Accel died on my shortly after the initial install and I replaced it with the BWD.
-At idle it looks like the timing is about 2 deg off, TunerPro says 16-17 deg and timing light says 18-19, is this acceptable?
-The Spark Advance hack shows 16-17 at idle but the spark table says it should be at 26, do you know why this would be?

I am going to do a tuning run tomorrow morning but at idle, in C/L, the BLM shows around 144 so VE is lean at idle.

[EagleMark]

The timing of 2 off is acceptable for now, actually perfect as it is a stock Spark Latency, not accurtate Spark Latency, difference of timing table to actual is the Warm Spark Bias.

I was looking through the bin and hack and there are so many possibilities for timing issues with this changed. I'd really like to see a log run to see if your timing discrepancy goes away. Remember we saw changes for 15 degrees from one cell to next and 15 degree change in same cell. This was a major point of trying a known bin, I have the logs from that bin and this does not happen? Or do we have a mechanical issue causing this?

144 BLM won't hurt a thing. Don't even worry about what BLM says untill your warmed up and driven a little. Actually if you want to work on fuel go ahead, can also fix the TCC issue I missed, just leave other stuff alone till log, Get a log, this weird issue is driving me nuts. It was very hard to spot, then very hard to not spot in other logs. I love a challenge!

[srobertsfsj]

This is probably a stupid question, there is no wiring to the transmission so how does it know to lock the TCC?

[EagleMark]

ECM knows, but there's no where to send signal. Does not hurt anything, just annoying seeing TCC come on when there is none to lock up...

[srobertsfsj]

gotcha, I'll set the min temp for TCC lock to max, hopefully that will disable it.

[srobertsfsj]

Ok, did a run this morning with your bin, NO changes (except for TCC off). Power was much better than last time with the initial timing set to 10 BUT I was still running 5 to 10 deg warmer than it should be, this tells me I am still too retarded (LOL). I am attaching the log file from the run. Again, after the run, I tried to modify the VE table using the VE correction spreadsheet and it wont save!!! Not sure what I am doing wrong...

Also, I attached a spreadsheet that someone from binderplanet put together for the AMC 360 engine, there is multiple tabs. Basically it dissects the 360 timing table, I was hoping to get your thoughts on it.

[EagleMark]

Not sure how to associate retarded timing with coolant temps? I can change mine a lot either direction and coolant temps stay the same... but that is a good cooling system working.

Stock timing is a good guideline for starting a conversion, but even if it was stock engine with a carb timing would be first thing to change for any performance gains, let alone your cam. So don't get stock on what stock timing is.

I'll look at your log here in a little bit...

[EagleMark]

I watched your log, finally! Unless you fixed something it proves my point of messing with to many things in a bin. Your timing is all within a few degrees per cell and ajoining cells. Only one cell had a 12 degree change and it is in an area where knock could have pulled timing or just a glitch in data. Where before you had many, many areas of unexplianed major spark changes.

I think you have a good start now to adjust your VE table and Spark table, work on idle etc... your cam, elevation and low vauum at idle would really improve by raising idle as high as you can with the auto like 700 instead of the 550 your trying at. If you get this inline your high idle to banging into gear will greatly reduce to a smoother transition.

Also knock counts are within reason for a conversion, very few, if you wrap the knock sensor with about 6 wraps of teflon tape it could de-sesitize it enough to be useful. Or add the brass elbow trick.

[gregs78cam]

Not sure how to associate retarded timing with coolant temps?

At a steady cruise, not enough advance can increase cylinder and coolant temps.

When I had the carb and HEI on the Camaro the vacuum advance diaphram went T.U. and even though it ran good and idled fine, at 60mph and 2000RPM temp would climb. I could let it idle or go WOT and temp would come down. Same water pump and fan I have on it now.

[EagleMark]

At a steady cruise, not enough advance can increase cylinder and coolant temps.Good info! I think I knew that but have always had enough cooling or close enough spark to not notice. Thanks! :thumbsup: