total newbie- fiero 3800 series II sc

[NCBearhawk]

Title pretty much sums it up. I've decided to take the plunge and tune my engine swap. 86 fiero se. Series 2 3800 sc ,manual trans. Plan to use ostrich 2.0 with b4 adapter and tunerpro rt. Obd1. I'm just stumbling along trying to learn as much as possible. Eventually I'm going to switch the car to turbo, hence the interest in diy rather than a mail order tune. Comments, help and direction are all welcome!
Paris

[dave w]

Which ECM are you planning to use?

dave w

[NCBearhawk]

I'm using the 16183247 ecm. I downloaded the $5b mask and a bin from tunerpro that look like they should work, maybe. I've been playing with them in tunerpro ...trying to wrap my head around how they work. My first real challenge looks like it will be to delete/negate the auto trans functions. Turning the vats offs seemed failrly simple. Then to get it running and start tuning...I haven't done anything crazy to the motor yet, so it should run okay on a basically stock tune.
Paris

[EagleMark]

$5B looks to be correct for that PCM. You will also need the ADX to record data.First thing to check in the mask/XDF is to open Mask ID and make sure it is 5B.

Yes a stock tune should run a stock motor, but there may be an issue if tranny was changed or emmissions devices removed, should still run. Then with help of the data logging the ADX in TunerPro will help figure out data coming out including error codes.

[NCBearhawk]

So is there an easy way to disable the auto trans functions since I am using a manual? I also need to figure out how to modify the vss code to work with the existing hardware. Thanks for the encouragement
Paris

[EagleMark]

The best thing to do is look for a manual bin to start with.

[dave w]

I'm wanting to make sure I understand the ECM and Powertrain setup.
Buick (3.8 Liter V6) 3800 Series II with Supercharger and a Manual Trans, fitted inside a Fiero.
16183247 ECM/ $5B


I'm thinking $5B would NOT have a maunal .bin ... what Buick after 1986 had a manual trans anyway?

Would it be possible to post (attach) the .xdf / .bin file your thinking about using?

dave w

[NCBearhawk]

Dave, I will try doing that when I get home. Should I just post a link , or should I copy the data to here? Powertrain is correct as you have listed. I know this configuration has been done before, I'm just not willing (yet) to pay for a tune that's just a starting point.
Paris

[dave w]

After selecting "Reply", In the lower right corner of the post window is a "Go Advanced" option. Once "Go Advanced" is active, there is the option to attach files.

dave w

[EagleMark]

All tuning type files are OK here. If you have one that fails let me know what extension/.xxx and appropriate file size.

[NCBearhawk]

Okay, here's the files I have so far. I think it's everything you were asking for. My ostrich hasn't arrived yet, so I'm still fiddling with things on the pc to get a feel for things.
Paris

[EagleMark]

Do you know what year the motor is? Do you have the ECM that came with motor? Can you read the chip from that ECM? Do you know the BCC off that chip?

$5B is for 16183247 in 94 - 95 Buick / Pontiac L67, 3800, Supercharged

There is $5B, $5B1, $5B2, $5B3, $5B4, $5B6 and $5B7...

[jameslleary]

I think there was a supercharged pontiac Grand Prix gts back then that had a manual trans. it was a 3800sc as well...i remember vividly doing recalls on the SC and manifold gaskets....5 a day at least, for 4 months.
EDIT:never mind, they were all autos.

[NCBearhawk]

Mark,
I'll check the ecm when I get home (late) tonight from work, but I will say I was going to ignore that almost entirely. The series II engines as far as I can tell were never run by an obd1 computer. The fiero swap fix was always to use a computer for a series I engine, swap appropriate sensors and reprogram. I'm starting to wonder if I don't need to go ahead and pay for the programming. I think Ryan at gmtuners will send me the files for 60 bucks ( I'm afraid to use dollar signs here...you guys might read something other than my intentions :) ). I'm pretty well stuck with using the computer I have in there now...it was a real bear to marry the two disparate harnesses. I've absolutely no interest in doing that again. I'm still waiting on the ostrich2.0, but even with that I'm thinking I can't read the existing chip as I have to take it out to put the g4 adapter in...retaining just the knock sensor functions of the memcal....but I could be wrong about that.
Keep the comments coming gentleman...they are greatly appreciated...I'ts nice to visit a forum and feel welcome!
Paris

[dave w]

Using an OBDI computer on an OBDII engine is not uncommon. I've recently installed a '7730 ECM on a 1999 Vortec 454, I modified the .bin a 7.4 instead of a 5.7 liter. I'm thinking your going to do something similar to your ECM, modify the .bin for a 3.8 liter. The option of GMTuners is an affordable option to get a baseline .bin and get the engine running.

dave w

[NCBearhawk]

BNUW are the last digits on the cumputer and the outside of the memcals if that helps....

[EagleMark]

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/BCCFind/result.shtml?BCC=BNUW

[RobertISaar]

Mark,
I'll check the ecm when I get home (late) tonight from work, but I will say I was going to ignore that almost entirely. The series II engines as far as I can tell were never run by an obd1 computer. The fiero swap fix was always to use a computer for a series I engine, swap appropriate sensors and reprogram. I'm starting to wonder if I don't need to go ahead and pay for the programming. I think Ryan at gmtuners will send me the files for 60 bucks ( I'm afraid to use dollar signs here...you guys might read something other than my intentions :) ). I'm pretty well stuck with using the computer I have in there now...it was a real bear to marry the two disparate harnesses. I've absolutely no interest in doing that again. I'm still waiting on the ostrich2.0, but even with that I'm thinking I can't read the existing chip as I have to take it out to put the g4 adapter in...retaining just the knock sensor functions of the memcal....but I could be wrong about that.
Keep the comments coming gentleman...they are greatly appreciated...I'ts nice to visit a forum and feel welcome!
Paris

there were some 1995 series II(N/A) cars, used the OBD1 ECM as well. i don't have any cals of them though.

also: there is no such thing as "5B7" as listed by tunercat... i have BINs for what is claimed to be 5B7, has the exact same algorithm portion as "5B".

[NCBearhawk]

So is there a better bin to work with? I see that there are multiple variations of $5b. Do I need to just load them up side by side and compare the bin files? Thanks again for all the input ( pun intended) ! This portion of this build is my least favorite part of building a car, but this forum is doing wonders for changing my attitude!
Paris

[EagleMark]

I'd have to say yes! Since that one is not even from a SuperCharged engine...(and also superceeded to another bin) the bin says RPO l36, well the only thing I can find for supercharged engine of that year and ECM is RPO L67 which also has a man trans bin BLAA which I can't find but there are 2 others on this page. BBTD which is L67 and manual in CalData but transmission RPO says Auto and so does BCC Find
http://www.gearhead-efi.com/BCCFind/result.shtml?BCC=BBTD
Not sure what 38SCSTK.BIN is? And BMYU is L27 auto... so best available starting point would be the BBTD or check the unknown...

http://www.gearhead-efi.com/gearhead-efi/bin/16183247/

With that it looks like $5B is correct.

EDIT: BLAA is also listed as manual trans but RPO for engine says Auto?

DOUBLE EDIT: I looked at both of them with available, 38SCSTK.BIN and BBTD in $5B mask and they both appear to be Auto Trans. There is only 3 bytes difference of undefined hex address...

[RobertISaar]

there were no OBD1 manual transmission L36 or L67s....... well, at least, not in america, autrailia might have gotten some though.\

what i would do..... is not use the engine because i hate 3800s(long story), but the more helpful response would be to start with a 94-95 series 1 supercharged BIN and copy in as many of the n/a series 2 tables as possible where appropriate, and should you have an OBD2 tuning program, grab some appropriate stuff from there from a series 2 supercharged BIN and throw those into the modified series 1 supercharged BIN.



it's going to be a long, boring process, one that i've done about 30 times now, good luck. also, is that the corrected 5B XDF you're using? i found errors in the one that was available online(mostly MAF related stuff) and fixed them for at least my version.

[EagleMark]

also, is that the corrected 5B XDF you're using? i found errors in the one that was available online(mostly MAF related stuff) and fixed them for at least my version.Me?I have no idea, just one I have here, I've never worked with it so don't know of any errors... there is also a lot of unknowns and with out a dissesembly I wouldn't know how to fix them?

Other then a cool engine, I'm not liking the availble XDF and not even sure what the PCM is? Memcal? Or flash? The ADX looks good...

[RobertISaar]

it's a P6 unit, 64KB BINs and uses an oddly shaped MEMCAL(G4 adapter from moates is needed, IIRC).

[NCBearhawk]

It is the memcal type you described. I've been in touch with Ryan at gmtuners and my bin file should be on the way soon. He described it as obd 1.5 . I wonder if that might be why there's not much other attention paid to it outside of the fiero or other engine swap set. Normally the 3800 series II would only have been in obdII cars. We'll see...tho firing up the car has been delayed. I pulled the fuel tank to upgrade the fuel pump for the swap and decided to wire brush it clean and treat it to a coat of P.O.R. while I had it out....unfortunately a few of the little rust dots on it left little holes behind. It's off to a local shop on friday to get cleaned up, patched and coated inside and out. Think I'm going to take them the radiator too so I can avoid the next delaying suprise... :) Aren't these go fast cheap projects so much fun!

[RobertISaar]

he may refer to it as "1.5" as do a lot of other people, but there is nothing OBD2 about it. OBD1 comms protocalls, OBD1 PCM.... it MIGHT have a rear O2 sensor and use OBD2 styled Pxxx codes, but i think that's about it.

[EagleMark]

Seems like a low production PCM, so low intrest and support...

The 95 LT1 uses the Pxxx OBDII codes, but it is OBDI. I'm with Robert, I don't think OBDI.5 exisists, it's just a referal to the odd change over years, there was also some issues with 96 - 97 PCMs and flashing which has now been corrected so I guess there all the Odd years during a time when goverment mandated once again technoigy that was not ready for prime time.

Was there ever an OBDI with front and rear O2 sensors? 94 -95 LT1 was 1 for OBDI and 2 for OBDII 96 -97.

[phonedawgz]

I thought OBD 1.5 generally referred to the flash ECMs from '94 & '95

[EagleMark]

It was, I thought, but now Ryan at gmtuners is calling a Memcal PCM OBDI.5 I still think it's a mythalogical creature produced by the Internet... GM never called it that? Have you ever seen a OBDI.5 scantool?

But if we are stuck with it, then it should be a OBDI system that started to implement OBDII codes. Then I was looking for real information which must be true cause it was on the Internet and.... well it's to late because some OBDII systems are being called OBDI.5 Why if 1996 and newer had to be and were OBDII?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OBD 1.5 refers to a partial implementation of OBD-II which General Motors (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/General_Motors) used on some vehicles in 1994, 1995, & 1996. (GM did not use the term OBD 1.5 in the documentation for these vehicles - they simply have an OBD and an OBD-II section in the service manual.)
For example, the 94-95 Corvettes have one post-catalyst oxygen sensor (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/Oxygen_sensor) (although they have two catalytic converters (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/Catalytic_converter)), and have a subset of the OBD-II codes implemented. For a 1994 Corvette the implemented OBD-II codes are P0116-P0118, P0131-P0135, P0151-P0155, P0158, P0160-P0161, P0171-P0175, P0420, P1114-P1115, P1133, P1153 and P1158.[5] (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/#cite_note-4)
This hybrid system was present on the GM H-body (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/GM_H_platform_(FWD)) cars in 94-95, W-body (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/GM_W_platform) cars (Buick Regal, Chevrolet Lumina ('95 only), Chevrolet Monte Carlo ('95 only), Pontiac Grand Prix, Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme) in 94-95, L-body (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/GM_L_platform) (Chevrolet Beretta/Corsica) in 94-95, Y-body (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/GM_Y_platform) (Chevrolet Corvette) in 94-95, on the F-body (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/GM_F_platform) (Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird) in 95 and on the J-Body (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/GM_J_platform) (Chevrolet Cavalier and Pontiac Sunfire) and N-Body (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/GM_N_platform) (Buick Skylark, Oldsmobile Achieva, Pontiac Grand Am) in 95 and 96 and also on '94-'95 Saab vehicles with the normally aspirated 2.3.
The pinout for the ALDL connection on these cars is as follows:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/OBD-connector-pinout.png/220px-OBD-connector-pinout.png (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/File:OBD-connector-pinout.png)http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf6/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/File:OBD-connector-pinout.png)
Female OBD connector pinout - front view




1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8


9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16


For ALDL connections, pin 9 is the data stream, pins 4 and 5 are ground, and pin 16 is battery voltage.
An OBD 1.5 compatible scan tool is required to read codes generated by OBD 1.5.
Additional vehicle-specific diagnostic and control circuits are also available on this connector. For instance, on the Corvette there are interfaces for the Class 2 serial data stream from the PCM, the CCM diagnostic terminal, the radio data stream, the airbag system, the selective ride control system, the low tire pressure warning system, and the passive keyless entry system.[6] (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/#cite_note-5)
An OBD1.5 has also been used on Mitsubishi cars of '95 '97 vintage,[citation needed (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] some[which? (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] 1995 Volkswagen VR6's[citation needed (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] and in the Ford Scorpio since 95.[7] (http://www.gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/#cite_note-6)

[phonedawgz]

I agree - OBD1 is also a retroactive invention. Just like WW1 or BC.

[RobertISaar]

wikipedia..... i may have to go edit the crap out of that page.

there ARE a few OBD1.5 PCMs out there..... the "blockbox" S10s from 94-95, and the 95 3800 F-body are the only ones i can think of off-hand.... those comunicate using an OBD2 protocall(not just styled codes), have the post-cat sensors and IIRC, on the underhood labels, some actually state metting OBDII specifications, even though they are 1995 models.

[RobertISaar]

did some digging.....

http://ecomodder.com/forum/scangauge-fuel-economy-gauge.php?do=compatibility

there's a list of "1.5" cars.... meaning built before OBD2 was required, yet they are capable of doing pretty much everything OBD2, with or without the OBD2 cert sticker.

[NCBearhawk]

Update : all my stuff is in. Wound up with the apu1 instead of the ostrich. I think that will be better in the long run.
G4 adapter is all set up. Just waiting for the fuel tank to come back from the shop to re install and try to get it fired up. I got the modified bin from Ryan at gmtuners. Very happy with his prompt service. I'm going to look at the bin files side this week to see if I can suss out the differences. Thanks again for the help and encouragement.
Paris

[insky]

Hello everyone. I was wondering if there was an update on this post. I am working on an identical set up (3800SC series II with a 16183247 PCM installed in a manual transmission Fiero). I have the car running but I have some things that still need work. I currently have a camshaft sensor and tranny temp DTC to correct. The engine appears to be running rich and it hesitates/misses around 4000 rpm when the boost solenoid kicks in.

Is there any guidance on how to eliminate the auto tranny codes and the reduce the fuel mixture? It isn't obvious what table in TunerPro should be used to adjust the fuel constant.

[phonedawgz]

If it were me, I'd go to Ryan Gick - gmtuners.com - email - sp1@gmtuners.com, and he can give you a chip already properly programmed for your application. $90 and you are set. Even if you still want to play with it after, it gives you a good starting point.

Do you have your MAP sensor connected to the vacuum at the lower intake manifold, the tap right below the supercharger snout, not any of the vacuum sources between the SC and the throttle body.

Most people disconnect the BBV and affix the valve closed. The BBV when open bypasses the supercharger and effectively turns it off.

Did you keep the ICM wiring as stock?

I make swap harnesses for 3800s (and other engines) for Fieros. http://reddevilriver.com

Have you hooked up your TunerPro RT OBD1 scanner to it yet?

[insky]

I currently have a boost gauge connected underneath the snout. The ECM diagrams, which were provided by GMTuners, for the 16183247 do not indicate a MAP sensor is used with this set up. Am I missing something with this?

The ICM harness is pretty much stock, except I added some length to it, so I could remote mount the ICM and coils. I just repeated a pin to pin check, and everything checked out. It seems unlikely that the cam sensor would be bad, but I haven't changed that yet.

I think I'll try driving with the BBV disconnected.

I have logged some data from the OBD1 with TunerProRT, which is where I saw which DTCs were present. I could post a log file if that would help.

[dave w]

Bringing this thread back to life.

I'm wondering if anyone can post a stock 94 ~ 95 3800 Supercharged .bin file. The 16183427 PCM I have has BCC BKZS, which I'm thinking is not correct for the 94 ~ 95 3800 Supercharged engine.

Thanks,

dave w

[EagleMark]

Robert is the man to ask for that if he does not see this thread.

Is this PCM a flash or Memcal?

[RobertISaar]

it's a MEMCAL unit, the 94-95 used the "gen2" MEMCALs that were about half the length of the normal ones.

i have BKZS showing up as a 95 riviera w/L67, 4T60E and a 2.93FDR.

original PCM part number is showing as 16197428, though i don't know if there are any significant differences to the one you're using now, i'm not finding 16183427 as a valid part number? i'm getting that part number as a 94-95 rolls royce "flying spur" PCM??? odly enough, that is a delco produced unit.

for 94-95 L67 BINs, i have BBTD(94 H-body), BHDR(94 C-body) and BKKH(95 H-body).

[phonedawgz]

I have a 16183247 BBTD that I could read for you. I believe that is for a 94 L67.

edit

You beat me to the punch.

[dave w]

I transposed some of the PCM numbers:yikes: ... 16183247

dave w

[RobertISaar]

comes up correctly for a pretty much all 94-95 3800 applications....

[dave w]

I found some interesting information ... Maybe BCC BLAA is for an L67 with manual trans.

dave w

[RobertISaar]

must be a typo..... GM never released a L67 vehicle w/manual trans in the US. australia probably received quite a few, but then you're dealing with a whole new PCM/mask.

if you find a BIN for a L67 w/manual trans for any application, it was either created by someone after the fact or a leaked GM prototyping calibration.

the only manual trans 3800s i can even think of in the US were the F-bodies and those were all OBD2(the 95 3800 F-bodies were all automatic and used an early OBD2 PCM).

[EagleMark]

Just looked at Cal Data and BLAA is listed as a 3.8L Man... but the trans is a M13 4T60E. So there's some typos going on...

[dave w]

must be a typo..... GM never released a L67 vehicle w/manual trans in the US. australia probably received quite a few, but then you're dealing with a whole new PCM/mask.

if you find a BIN for a L67 w/manual trans for any application, it was either created by someone after the fact or a leaked GM prototyping calibration.

the only manual trans 3800s i can even think of in the US were the F-bodies and those were all OBD2(the 95 3800 F-bodies were all automatic and used an early OBD2 PCM).

I agree. Most of the information available on the Internet about EFI is good, not always.

dave w

[EagleMark]

I agree. Most of the information available on the Internet about EFI is good, not always.

dave wYeah but when it's wrong? It's wrong forever and there's no way to change it! That's it, it's on the net and set in stone! People just keep repeating it over and over and over and... :laugh:

[delcowizzid]

aussies do a segment swap for manual trans use normally, but we run a different ecu with 1Mb memcal pcm.