Inline 6 on a 0411 pcm

[Thorwon]

So, if I'm reading correctly, I can run a inline 6 on a 0411 pcm.
I'll need to put a 3x crank trigger and a 1x cam signal.
If I'm reading correctly, I can run port fuel injection and a distributor for ignition.
Can anyone confirm this? Has anyone ever done this?
I've read several posts where people said they were going to do this but they never finished the project or just never posted that they did.
I'll be machining my own crank reluctor and maybe building a custom distributor. The pcm I'll be using is a 0411 with this bin.

[dave w]

The quick answer is yes, a 3x crank trigger and a 1x cam trigger will allow the I6 to be operated with the '0411.

My idea for a SBC was to use the L31 distributor for both cam (CMP) and crank (CKP) signals. The pictures below are the design I cam up with.

Basic engine math, 1x crank revolution = 2x cam revolutions, meaning for the SBC an 8x trigger wheel inside the distributor = 4x crank trigger. The I6 engine math is 3x crank = 6x cam.

dave w

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[Thorwon]

The quick answer is yes, a 3x crank trigger and a 1x cam trigger will allow the I6 to be operated with the '0411.

My idea for a SBC was to use the L31 distributor for both cam (CMP) and crank (CKP) signals. The pictures below are the design I cam up with.

Basic engine math, 1x crank revolution = 2x cam revolutions, meaning for the SBC an 8x trigger wheel inside the distributor = 4x crank trigger. The I6 engine math is 3x crank = 6x cam.

dave w

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That's a very interesting idea. I may have to give that some thought.
It may be easier that the crank reluctor I've been looking to make. And it would be in a self contained unit. :idea:

[dave w]

More pictures for more ideas?:idea:

The cam signal trigger wheel is 175 degrees, not 180 degrees.:rockon:

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[Thorwon]

More pictures for more ideas?:idea:

The cam signal trigger wheel is 175 degrees, not 180 degrees.:rockon:

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Nice! So did you machine the housing?
Why 175 deg?
I was thinking I can put the cam trigger on the bottom of the mount plate and the crank trigger on the top.

Would you happen to have a print for that???:popcorn:

[dave w]

I have access to very accurate measuring tools. I don't know why 175 degrees, but the one I measured was 174.96 degrees.

What Inline 6 are you working with? Is there a factory distributor to leverage a dual trigger design. The SBC L31 was the distributor I leveraged because it has a CMP.

BTW, it's very expensive to make a custom "One Off" dual trigger distributor.

OBD2 is better than OBD1?

OBD2 is more expensive than OBD1?

dave w

[Thorwon]

I'm working with a 1988 Jeep 4.0 engine. There is a factory distributor that has a single trigger.
That's why I said I might be able to put the other one on the bottom of the mount plate. I'm not sure there's room.
I've been running a HEI big cap distributor for the last year. But something else has died in the system so I'm going to see if it'll run on a 0411.
I'm a retired machinist so I have time to play with it. All it'll cost is the price of the parts. I have a lathe and mill with rotary. They're both small but in good shape.
I already have a harness set up for the 0411. I'm still not sure what throttle body I'm going to use. The intake manifold has a weird 3 bolt pattern.
So I'll probably just machine an adapter for it to a GM throttle body.

[dave w]

My files are for the V8 Crank Trigger Wheel. Pictures below are the V6 Trigger Wheel and the V8 Trigger Wheel.

The spacing for the V6 appears to be 60 degrees evenly spaced, or 60 degrees high / 60 degrees low. The spacing for the V8 appears to be 30 degrees high / 60 degrees low.

V6 GM PART NUMBER 10230149
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V8 GM PART NUMBER 10190917
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dave w

[Thorwon]

I have both of those and that is what they measure with the deg wheel I have.

I think the 6x trigger wheel I make for the distributor will need to be the same.

I have also thought about just milling the harmonic balancer. It has a ridge around the front of it.
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[dave w]

It's budget / skill / math decision. You got this.:thumbsup:

The dual trigger distributor option provides for a very clean installation. The dual trigger distributor will require 6x crank triggers evenly spaced and 1x cam trigger. The alignment or synchronization of CKP / CMP signals is the next challenge.

Pictures below show alignment of the V8 24x crank trigger, V6 alignment similar.

dave w

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[Thorwon]

Dave, thanks for the info and words of encouragement.

I'll let you know what I decide to go with.

[2xls1]

Wouldn't the slight slop between the cam gear and distributor gear cause problem with the crank reluctor/sensor in a distributor? Those reluctors are usually very fixed to the crankshaft with no movement. I now it is small but still there is going to be some rocking between the gears.

[Thorwon]

Wouldn't the slight slop between the cam gear and distributor gear cause problem with the crank reluctor/sensor in a distributor? Those reluctors are usually very fixed to the crankshaft with no movement. I now it is small but still there is going to be some rocking between the gears.

I'm not worried so much about the gear backlash as I am the slop in the timing chain. :laugh:

The backlash between the gears is probably not going to be any concern at all. Besides every distributor fired ignition system ever made has the same thing.

But I'm not really worried too much about that. It's just an OLD engine that I'm going to play with.

If this works I might Do the same thing to my 1987 Wrangler that has a 2.5L 4 banger in it.:rockon:

[2xls1]

Well there is injection timing as well since I don't think it will be running batch fire but it probably won't make much difference since I doubt you will care about misfire detection either.

[Thorwon]

2xls1 the total error should be less than 4 deg on the crank. and it really won't matter on this engine. We'll just have to wait and see how it runs

But you're right I'm not going to worry about misfire detection. I'm not going to turn it off unless it becomes an issue.

[dave w]

I have both of those and that is what they measure with the deg wheel I have.

I think the 6x trigger wheel I make for the distributor will need to be the same.

I have also thought about just milling the harmonic balancer. It has a ridge around the front of it.
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For a nearly perfect 100% CKP/CMP signal accuracy, maybe use the harmonic balancer for both CMP and CKP? Maybe the outer ring / larger ring the CMP? Maybe use the inner ring / smaller diameter ring for 3x CKP? If I'm thinking my engine math correctly, then maybe machine two 87.5 degrees segments (175 degrees CMP trigger wheel divided by two) from the outer ring? Custom CKP - CMP brackets required. Custom balancing for the I6 Harmonic Balancer required. The BBC 8.1 Liter CKP sensor will read the Harmonic Balancer modified 175 / 185 degrees.:thumbsup:

Link for the BBC 8.1 liter Timing chain and gear set: https://www.carid.com/melling/engine-timing-set-mpn-3-4sr50sc.html

dave w

[Thorwon]

For a nearly perfect 100% CKP/CMP signal accuracy, maybe use the harmonic balancer for both CMP and CKP? Maybe the outer ring / larger ring the CMP? Maybe use the inner ring / smaller diameter ring for 3x CKP? If I'm thinking my engine math correctly, then maybe machine two 87.5 degrees segments (175 degrees CMP trigger wheel divided by two) from the outer ring? Custom CKP - CMP brackets required. Custom balancing for the I6 Harmonic Balancer required. The BBC 8.1 Liter CKP sensor will read the Harmonic Balancer modified 175 / 185 degrees.:thumbsup:

Link for the BBC 8.1 liter Timing chain and gear set: https://www.carid.com/melling/engine-timing-set-mpn-3-4sr50sc.html

dave w

The CMP won't work off the crank. The crank makes one full revolution+185 deg. before the CMP gets a signal.

[2xls1]

I'm in no way trying to say it won't work. More just inquiring as I know of no OEM crank sensors that read anywhere but directly off the crankshaft. I hope you will keep this thread updated with whatever issues you run into. It will be interesting. And the cam sensor does not need anywhere near the accuracy of the crank sensor. It's just telling the PCM TDC either compression or exhaust. OEM vehicles using a P01 don't even need the cam sensor to run. Without a CMP signal on start the PCM will guess TDC on compression. If no start it will wait 180 degrees and fire the plug again. Once it starts it will sync on that position until the next key cycle.

[Thorwon]

I'm in no way trying to say it won't work. More just inquiring as I know of no OEM crank sensors that read anywhere but directly off the crankshaft. I hope you will keep this thread updated with whatever issues you run into. It will be interesting. And the cam sensor does not need anywhere near the accuracy of the crank sensor. It's just telling the PCM TDC either compression or exhaust. OEM vehicles using a P01 don't even need the cam sensor to run. Without a CMP signal on start the PCM will guess TDC on compression. If no start it will wait 180 degrees and fire the plug again. Once it starts it will sync on that position until the next key cycle.

That's what I love about this site, You can never tell when somebody will teach you something. I love learning and I didn't know that.

So if I put a CRP on the crank and drop a big cap HEI in this engine it'll run? That would be crazy.

All I really need is a way to run the fueling.

[dave w]

The CMP won't work off the crank. The crank makes one full revolution+185 deg. before the CMP gets a signal.

I'm not sure what will happen with both CMP and CKP on the crank without an oscilloscope.

What I know works . . . CMP and CKP in a distributor or dual trigger distributor works in a Chevy L31 V8 using 8x crank triggers and 1x cam trigger.

Likely everyone would agrees Inline 6 requires 3x crank triggers.

Likely everyone would agree that the engine math is two crankshaft rotations equals one distributor rotation. The camshaft timing chain gear is twice the diameter of the crankshaft timing chain gear.

So using the reverse logic to make a dual trigger Harmonic Balancer the cam signal would need to half the signal of the distributor mounted cam signal?

Let's say for simplicity reasons, the distributor mounted cam signal is 175 degrees, so half of 175 degrees is 87.5 degrees.

So now it's time to use an oscilloscope on a 4.3 V6 and reverse engineer a solution, or maybe not?

dave w

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[2xls1]

That's what I love about this site, You can never tell when somebody will teach you something. I love learning and I didn't know that.

So if I put a CRP on the crank and drop a big cap HEI in this engine it'll run? That would be crazy.

All I really need is a way to run the fueling.

I can't say for sure on a V6 OS which I think you'll be using but for sure on 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, and 6.0 will run without a CMP signal. You can get an extended crank while the PCM figures out compression TDC. One thing is do not disable the DTCs for the CMP sensor. The PCM has to see the CMP code set for it to run without the signal. I've just never tested it on a vehicle with the CMP in the distributor. The V8s have the cam reluctor either directly on the back of the cam or up front on the cam gear.

[Thorwon]

Full rotation of all 4 stroke engines is 720 deg on the crank and 360 on the cam.

Your math is correct but your thinking is wrong.

To get a 175 deg signal on the cam the crank has to turn 545 deg while the cam has turned 185 deg.

While 87.5 deg rotation on the crank will give you 175 deg on the cam but then you have to figure out how to get another 360 deg on the crank.

If you try to put the cam signal on the crank you will get 1 signal per revolution. A 1x cam signal is actually a 1x per every 2 crank revolutions.

[Thorwon]

I can't say for sure on a V6 OS which I think you'll be using but for sure on 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, and 6.0 will run without a CMP signal. You can get an extended crank while the PCM figures out compression TDC. One thing is do not disable the DTCs for the CMP sensor. The PCM has to see the CMP code set for it to run without the signal. I've just never tested it on a vehicle with the CMP in the distributor. The V8s have the cam reluctor either directly on the back of the cam or up front on the cam gear.

I may try it both ways and just see what I get. I'm going to use the 2002 Chevy S-10 L35 4.3L 4L60E (12212156) bin I posted in the start of the thread.

I've still got to swamp in a manual trans sec.

[2xls1]

Here is a stock 2002 Silverado 4.3L M5 Trans bin if that will help.

[Thorwon]

Here is a stock 2002 Silverado 4.3L M5 Trans bin if that will help.

Thanks, I'll take a look at it.

[dave w]

Full rotation of all 4 stroke engines is 720 deg on the crank and 360 on the cam.

Your math is correct but your thinking is wrong.

To get a 175 deg signal on the cam the crank has to turn 545 deg while the cam has turned 185 deg.

While 87.5 deg rotation on the crank will give you 175 deg on the cam but then you have to figure out how to get another 360 deg on the crank.

If you try to put the cam signal on the crank you will get 1 signal per revolution. A 1x cam signal is actually a 1x per every 2 crank revolutions.

For simplicity reasons lets look at the CMP signal @ 180 degree not 175, so perhaps we can agree the picture below is what a V6 CMP / CKP signal looks like with a 180 degree 1x distributor CMP Signal?

dave w

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[Thorwon]

For simplicity reasons lets look at the CMP signal @ 180 degree not 175, so perhaps we can agree the picture below is what a V6 CMP / CKP signal looks like with a 180 degree 1x distributor CMP Signal?

dave w

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Yes, I agree that's what it should look like.

[dave w]

I can't say for sure on a V6 OS which I think you'll be using but for sure on 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, and 6.0 will run without a CMP signal. You can get an extended crank while the PCM figures out compression TDC. One thing is do not disable the DTCs for the CMP sensor. The PCM has to see the CMP code set for it to run without the signal. I've just never tested it on a vehicle with the CMP in the distributor. The V8s have the cam reluctor either directly on the back of the cam or up front on the cam gear.

I don't know if either a V6 or V8 using the '0411 with a distributor mounted CMP will run without a CMP signal, that theory of operation will need to be tested.

What I've learned from the dual trigger distributors I've built is the alignment between CMP / CKP is CRITICAL. If the distributor mounted CMP is not accurately aligned with the CKP, the engine will not start.

dave w

[dave w]

Would it be an accurate statement to say the distributor mounted CMP is telling the '0411 computer that cylinder #1 is at TDC of the compression stroke?

Would it be an accurate statement to say the CMP signal is setting / resetting the injector firing sequence?

Would it be an accurate statement to say the '0411 computer that is using a distributor mounted CMP is adjusting the ignition timing via the Ignition Control Module based on CKP and MAF input?

dave w

[dave w]

I see the error in my thinking. :homer:

dave w

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[Thorwon]

I see the error in my thinking. :homer:

dave w

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I had faith you'd figure it out, you're a pretty smart guy.

[Thorwon]

opps

[dave w]

Another Idea :idea: similar to how DUI Distributors makes the HEI Distributors for the IH V8 engines. Basically, DUI adds a spud shaft / spud housing and an IH gear assembly to an "Off - The - Shelf" Chevy HEI distributor. Perhaps a similar idea will allow an "Off - The - Shelf" Vortec V6 distributor with 1x CMP to be retro fitted to the Jeep Inline 6? Perhaps a custom "one-off" Jeep Inline 6 spud shaft / spud housing and Jeep gear assembly added to the Chevy V6 distributor?

dave w

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[Thorwon]

Another Idea :idea: similar to how DUI Distributors makes the HEI Distributors for the IH V8 engines. Basically, DUI adds a spud shaft / spud housing and an IH gear assembly to an "Off - The - Shelf" Chevy HEI distributor. Perhaps a similar idea will allow an "Off - The - Shelf" Vortec V6 distributor with 1x CMP to be retro fitted to the Jeep Inline 6? Perhaps a custom "one-off" Jeep Inline 6 spud shaft / spud housing and Jeep gear assembly added to the Chevy V6 distributor?

dave w

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That's what I have in mind. I'm running a big cap HEI that I did that to. But you can buy the big cap distributor for the jeep in line 6.

So I know I can modify a V6 distributor to work. But jeep makes this for the later model 4.0 engine. To bad the 0411 won't do coil near plug.17108

[dave w]

That's what I have in mind. So I know I can modify a V6 distributor to work.

Seems like the next step is a 3x CKP.

Google shows:
Jeep Inline 6 - Firing Order 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4
Chevy V6 4.3 - Firing Order 1 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2

Details . . . Details . . . Details

:popcorn:

dave w

[Thorwon]

Seems like the next step is a 3x CKP.

Google shows:
Jeep Inline 6 - Firing Order 1 - 5 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 4
Chevy V6 4.3 - Firing Order 1 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2

Details . . . Details . . . Details

:popcorn:

dave w

Well I spent a few min. looking at the reluctor angle compared to the balancer angle at TDC. It looks like it should be a simple thing to do. :laugh: We'll see.
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[2xls1]

I don't know if either a V6 or V8 using the '0411 with a distributor mounted CMP will run without a CMP signal, that theory of operation will need to be tested.

What I've learned from the dual trigger distributors I've built is the alignment between CMP / CKP is CRITICAL. If the distributor mounted CMP is not accurately aligned with the CKP, the engine will not start.

dave w

I don't know if you can just "unplug" only the CMP on a V6 like you can on a V8. I just don't work on those like I do the V8s. Is there a separate plug on the distributor for only the CMP signal?

[dave w]

Is there a separate plug on the distributor for only the CMP signal?

The distributor mounted CMP has it's own 3 pin plug.

dave w

[dave w]

Well I spent a few min. looking at the reluctor angle compared to the balancer angle at TDC. It looks like it should be a simple thing to do. :laugh: We'll see.
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Been there, done that.:thumbsup:

dave w

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[Thorwon]

Dave will the factory crank sensor pickup aluminum or just steel?

[dave w]

Aluminum won't work, it needs to a ferrous metal.

I use Mild Steel.

Stainless steel won't work.

dave w

[Thorwon]

Thanks I found a piece of an old skid plate from a cj5 I used to have.
I think it'll work nicely.
So it needs to be magnetic.

[dave w]

The sensor has a magnet inside, so the trigger wheel needs to be made a ferrous metal.

[Thorwon]

Well I got the reluctor made and mounted today. Now if I can get the sensor mounted and lined up I'll start running wires.

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[Thorwon]

A little more progress.
Can anyone tell me what the gap should be between the sensor and reluctor?

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[dave w]

A little more progress.
Can anyone tell me what the gap should be between the sensor and reluctor?

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Nice work!:thumbsup:

I don't remember exactly what the gap needs to be. I'm thinking about 0.040". What I remember doing to figure out the gap was power on the CKP sensor using the PCM. I temporarily removed the CKP signal wire from the computer and connected a volt meter to the CKP signal wire and rotated the engine by hand to see when the CKP signal triggered on / off watching the volt meter.

dave w

[Thorwon]

Nice work!:thumbsup:

I don't remember exactly what the gap needs to be. I'm thinking about 0.040". What I remember doing to figure out the gap was power on the CKP sensor using the PCM. I temporarily removed the CKP signal wire from the computer and connected a volt meter to the CKP signal wire and rotated the engine by hand to see when the CKP signal triggered on / off watching the volt meter.

dave w

I've found anywhere from 0.009" to 0.120" so 0.040" sounds like a good place to start.

Now I've got a lot of wiring to do.

I did my first full write with PCM Hammer, on the pcm I'm going to be using. It went great, did a full write in 1 min 9 sec.
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[Thorwon]

Dave can you tell me what pcm wires I HAVE to have to run this thing as a stand alone?

[dave w]

Dave can you tell me what pcm wires I HAVE to have to run this thing as a stand alone?

I don't have schematics for a V6, but the attached V8 2002 Vortec Schematics.zip will be nearly identical to the V6 less two injectors.

The PCM will run with Battery Positive, Battery Negative, and Ignition On / Start wiring working. I strongly recommend 10 Amp fuses for Battery + and Ignition On / Start wiring.

dave w

[Thorwon]

I don't have schematics for a V6, but the attached V8 2002 Vortec Schematics.zip will be nearly identical to the V6 less two injectors.

The PCM will run with Battery Positive, Battery Negative, and Ignition On / Start wiring working. I strongly recommend 10 Amp fuses for Battery + and Ignition On / Start wiring.

dave w

Thanks and I have a 6 circuit fuse box everything will run through.

[Thorwon]

So I think I'm going to change what I'm going to run my Jeep engine on.
I went to the U pull it and found a 2004 Astro van with the 4.3L that had nothing missing from the wiring harness or sensors. I got the whole thing for $80. P59 and all.
Now I've got to cut down the harness and set up a tune to run it on. It's an auto trans tune and I'm going to need to seg swap to make it a manual trans.
I lucked out with it being OS 12587603 and I found a manual bin on line. So I seg swapped it to a manual trans.
Dave if you get a min take a look at it for me. This is the first time I've done anything like this.

[dave w]

A torque converted with fluid will load the engine differently than a flywheel and clutch on deceleration.

I've experienced better results using an original manual transmission OS with a Manual Trans. The Deceleration Fuel Cutoff (DFCO) can be problematic when segment swapping a manual trans into an automatic OS.

When I flash a 5.3 liter for manual trans (5.3's were not mated to manual trans from the factory), I'll start with the a 4.8 Manual OS and hand pick the 5.3 Engine Parameters I will swap (Fuel / Air / Spark). Using a complete 5.3 engine segment swap into a 4.8 manual OS can adversely affect DFCO.

Knowing you have an Inline 6 vs. the 4.3 V6, it's anybody's GUESS what DFCO will actually look like. At this point in time, there are other "Things" to work on. The trans segment swap posted above is a good "best guess" or starter .bin file. Keep the forward progress going, tweak DFCO some other day.

dave w

[Thorwon]

A torque converted with fluid will load the engine differently than a flywheel and clutch on deceleration.

I've experienced better results using an original manual transmission OS with a Manual Trans. The Deceleration Fuel Cutoff (DFCO) can be problematic when segment swapping a manual trans into an automatic OS.

When I flash a 5.3 liter for manual trans (5.3's were not mated to manual trans from the factory), I'll start with the a 4.8 Manual OS and hand pick the 5.3 Engine Parameters I will swap (Fuel / Air / Spark). Using a complete 5.3 engine segment swap into a 4.8 manual OS can adversely affect DFCO.

Knowing you have an Inline 6 vs. the 4.3 V6, it's anybody's GUESS what DFCO will actually look like. At this point in time, there are other "Things" to work on. The trans segment swap posted above is a good "best guess" or starter .bin file. Keep the forward progress going, tweak DFCO some other day.

dave w

Just so you know I will be running a automatic trans, just not a GM trans. I'm keeping the Jeep auto that all it needs to shift is a TPS signal RPM and a speed signal. And I have those covered.

[dave w]

Just so you know I will be running a automatic trans, just not a GM trans. I'm keeping the Jeep auto that all it needs to shift is a TPS signal RPM and a speed signal. And I have those covered.

Oh, thanks for the clarification.

For non-GM Auto Trans and GM Auto Trans without Electronic Shifting, I use the baseline Auto Trans OS with All Automatic Transmission errors disabled.

dave w

[Thorwon]

Oh, thanks for the clarification.

For non-GM Auto Trans and GM Auto Trans without Electronic Shifting, I use the baseline Auto Trans OS with All Automatic Transmission errors disabled.

dave w

Now, see, I wouldn't have thought of that!!
Dave, I really do appreciate the advice. Like I've said before, I'm learning.

[Thorwon]

So, I'll need to go through all the codes for the trans and turn each one off?

[dave w]

So, I'll need to go through all the codes for the trans and turn each one off?
Possibly compare the transmission error codes within the same OS manual vs. automatic for a guideline of what automatic error codes to disable.

Hint: Depending on the OS, there are some transmission error codes enabled for both manual and automatic transmission . . . which is interesting.:thumbsup:

dave w

[ericjon262]

have you considered a non 0411 PCM? you may be able to work with a PCM from a 3400 or 3800, I have a thread detailing the differences between the PCM wiring. if you ran an external 24x crank trigger, you could probably run LS coils without a distributor at all.

http://gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1898-GM-V6-PCM-pinouts

[Thorwon]

have you considered a non 0411 PCM? you may be able to work with a PCM from a 3400 or 3800, I have a thread detailing the differences between the PCM wiring. if you ran an external 24x crank trigger, you could probably run LS coils without a distributor at all.

http://gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?1898-GM-V6-PCM-pinouts

Thanks for sharing that with me.
That's a lot of info you put in that thread.
I'm actually using a P59 computer hardware #12583659. It came from a 2004 Astro van.
I'm just looking for anything that will run my 4.0L Jeep engine and be reliable. The 30+ year old Jeep wiring is junk. And of course it's not OBD2 so it can't tell you what's wrong.

I picked the P01 and P59 because I have PCM Hammer to read and write to them. I use TunerPro RT to modify tunes.
I'm going to be looking at the other 6 cyl GM systems because I have two other Jeeps I want to fuel inject. So the info you posted will probably be useful.

[Thorwon]

ericjon262 What program do you use to read/write to these pcms?

[ericjon262]

ericjon262 What program do you use to read/write to these pcms?


Right now, I'm using winflash and tunercat obd2, in the past, I've used DHP and tiny tuner(just a bin editor) with good results, DHP is now defunct though, I've heard you can buy an ACVT-852 cable and use the DHP software (if you can find it). otherwise there's HP tuners, which is probably the easiest to get, but the most expensive to continually operate. I'm exploring options to improve capability of the obd2 PCM, but I haven't gotten too far yet.

Tiny Tuner:

http://theblattners.com/Projects/TinyTuner/default.html?fbclid=IwAR11wZaJg7g7oK4T4QxDNvvOULT1 3gIwBm_B0JvwTchYe_XsKGP_EMPHWCY

[Thorwon]

Well it runs pretty good for the first time I started it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxlzG2TspuE

[2xls1]

Well it runs pretty good for the first time I started it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxlzG2TspuE

Way to go. It's refreshing in today's day and age to see someone thinking outside the box and engineering something like that. We seem to be living in an age where people just want to watch a YouTube video to show them how to do something rather than just figuring something out on their own like we used to do. Maybe car crafting isn't dead.
:rockon:

[dave w]

Possibly pictures of the distributor will be shared?

dave w

[Thorwon]

Possibly pictures of the distributor will be shared?

dave w

I'm using the stock distributor from a 1996 Cherokee.

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[dave w]

I'm using the stock distributor from a 1996 Cherokee.

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Any modifications required to the Stock 1996 Distributor?

dave w

[Thorwon]

Any modifications required to the Stock 1996 Distributor?

dave w

Just had to change the wire plug. I did the same with the TPS and the IAC plugged in and seams to be working.
I don't have the 02 sensors installed yet so it's running open loop.

[dave w]

Just had to change the wire plug. I did the same with the TPS and the IAC plugged in and seams to be working.
I don't have the 02 sensors installed yet so it's running open loop.

For sure . . . the devil is in the details:thumbsup:

dave w

[Thorwon]

For sure . . . the devil is in the details:thumbsup:

dave w

Dave this system runs two 02 sensors. But the manifold only has one bung in it. Do you think I can get away with hooking both inputs to one 02 sensor?
I just don't want to have to pull the exhaust manifold off again, it's a P I A.
Here's another video of it running.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtRczCNffFw

[dave w]

Dave this system runs two 02 sensors. But the manifold only has one bung in it. Do you think I can get away with hooking both inputs to one 02 sensor?
I just don't want to have to pull the exhaust manifold off again, it's a P I A.
Here's another video of it running.

I'm guessing, but I think two O2 sensors in a single exhaust is mostly OK. I'm thinking GM used Bank Assignments on V6 / V8 engines for Fuel Trims . . . for error codes Bank 1 / Bank 2 rich or lean. Theoretically (I think), both O2 sensors in a single exhaust would simultaneously trigger Bank 1 / Bank 2 rich or lean errors and simultaneously correct to the same rich / lean fuel trims?

What happens when one spark plug fails in the inline 6 with two O2 sensors in a single exhaust causing "All Banks" to run rich is anyone's guess how the engine will perform or cause potential engine damage? What happens when one O2 sensor fails with two O2 sensors in a single exhaust is anybody's guess what "All Banks" will do for engine performance or potential engine damage?

dave w

[Thorwon]

Well I've had to change up the distributor. When I installed it I didn't think about where in the crank rotation the sink signal was sent to the computer. I am getting a sink error.
I have no way to look at the signal so I'm guessing. :confused:
So I set the engine at TDC #1 and the reluctor was about 90 deg from the signal coil. I then rotated the distributor and reset the plug wires appropriately.
It idles much smoother and runs stronger.
This is a learning experience so I'm figuring it out as I go. :rockon:
I guess I'm going to have to buy a oscilloscope. And then learn how to use it.:thumbsup:

[dave w]

Maybe this CASE Learn procedure will help?

http://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/support/Knowledgebase/Article/View/99/0/crank-relearn-instructions-with-and-without-an-obd-scannerreader



Crank Relearn Instructions (With and Without an OBD Scanner/Reader)
Posted by Alex E. on 19 March 2016 04:29 PM
These Crank Relearn Instructions may not apply to all vehicles. But they're close to how it's done on most cars.

To perform the relearn, proceed as follows:

Connect a scanner to make sure there are no trouble codes stored in the computer’s memory.

If there is any power train trouble code other than P1336 (Crankshaft Position Variation not learned), the computer will disable the relearn function until the problem that caused the code has been eliminated.

Also, make sure that the engine coolant (check it when the engine is cold) and oil levels are at an acceptable level.

1. Set the parking brake and block the drive wheels. Make sure that the hood is closed.

2. Start the engine and make sure that the engine coolant temperature is at least 158 degrees F. (70 degrees C.)

3. Turn the engine off for at least 10 seconds.

4. Select the crankshaft position variation learn procedure (CASE Learn)on your scanner.

5. Make sure that the transmission is in Park. Start the engine.

6. Apply the brakes and hold the pedal firmly.

7. Follow the scanner instructions.



Remember: That you are going to increase the engine speed to approximately 3000 RPM, 4000 RPM, or 5150 RPM. That’s the variation learn fuel cutoff RPM (depending upon the engine), and that it’s important to release the throttle when the engine RPM starts to decrease as a result of the fuel cutoff going into effect. Failure to do such will result in over revving of the engine, causing possible engine damage.

8. Once the engine has returned to idle, check the status of Diagnostic trouble code P1336. If the scanner indicates that the CASE has been learned, the relearn procedure is now complete. If CASE has not been learned, check for the presence of other power train codes. If any exist, correct the problem, then repeat this procedure.



NOTE: If the Crankshaft Variation Relearn is not accessible through your scanner (some truck applications 1998 & later), perform the relearn in the following manner:

1. Turn off all of the accessories. With the Air temperature sensor and Coolant temperature within 5 degrees (Centigrade) of each other, start the engine and let it idle in Park or Neutral for two minutes.

2. Accelerate the vehicle to 55 mph at part throttle. Cruise at 55 mph for 8- 10 minutes until the engine reaches operating temperature.

3. Cruise at 55 mph for another 5-6 minutes.

4. Decelerate to 45 mph without using the brakes, and maintain 45 mph for 1 minute.

5. Perform 4 deceleration cycles, without using the brakes, of 25 seconds each where no specific speed is necessary. Returning to 45 mph for 15 seconds in between deceleration cycles.

6. Accelerate to 55 mph and cruise for 2 minutes.

7. Stop the vehicle and idle for 2 minutes with the brake applied and the transmission in Drive (automatic trans.) or Neutral (manual trans.) with the clutch depressed.

[Thorwon]

Maybe this CASE Learn procedure will help?

http://www.totalcardiagnostics.com/support/Knowledgebase/Article/View/99/0/crank-relearn-instructions-with-and-without-an-obd-scannerreader



Crank Relearn Instructions (With and Without an OBD Scanner/Reader)
Posted by Alex E. on 19 March 2016 04:29 PM
These Crank Relearn Instructions may not apply to all vehicles. But they're close to how it's done on most cars.

To perform the relearn, proceed as follows:

Connect a scanner to make sure there are no trouble codes stored in the computer’s memory.

If there is any power train trouble code other than P1336 (Crankshaft Position Variation not learned), the computer will disable the relearn function until the problem that caused the code has been eliminated.

Also, make sure that the engine coolant (check it when the engine is cold) and oil levels are at an acceptable level.

1. Set the parking brake and block the drive wheels. Make sure that the hood is closed.

2. Start the engine and make sure that the engine coolant temperature is at least 158 degrees F. (70 degrees C.)

3. Turn the engine off for at least 10 seconds.

4. Select the crankshaft position variation learn procedure (CASE Learn)on your scanner.

5. Make sure that the transmission is in Park. Start the engine.

6. Apply the brakes and hold the pedal firmly.

7. Follow the scanner instructions.



Remember: That you are going to increase the engine speed to approximately 3000 RPM, 4000 RPM, or 5150 RPM. That’s the variation learn fuel cutoff RPM (depending upon the engine), and that it’s important to release the throttle when the engine RPM starts to decrease as a result of the fuel cutoff going into effect. Failure to do such will result in over revving of the engine, causing possible engine damage.

8. Once the engine has returned to idle, check the status of Diagnostic trouble code P1336. If the scanner indicates that the CASE has been learned, the relearn procedure is now complete. If CASE has not been learned, check for the presence of other power train codes. If any exist, correct the problem, then repeat this procedure.



NOTE: If the Crankshaft Variation Relearn is not accessible through your scanner (some truck applications 1998 & later), perform the relearn in the following manner:

1. Turn off all of the accessories. With the Air temperature sensor and Coolant temperature within 5 degrees (Centigrade) of each other, start the engine and let it idle in Park or Neutral for two minutes.

2. Accelerate the vehicle to 55 mph at part throttle. Cruise at 55 mph for 8- 10 minutes until the engine reaches operating temperature.

3. Cruise at 55 mph for another 5-6 minutes.

4. Decelerate to 45 mph without using the brakes, and maintain 45 mph for 1 minute.

5. Perform 4 deceleration cycles, without using the brakes, of 25 seconds each where no specific speed is necessary. Returning to 45 mph for 15 seconds in between deceleration cycles.

6. Accelerate to 55 mph and cruise for 2 minutes.

7. Stop the vehicle and idle for 2 minutes with the brake applied and the transmission in Drive (automatic trans.) or Neutral (manual trans.) with the clutch depressed.


I may try this but I think my issue is that the jeep distributor is more that 100 deg out from where it should be.
I pulled it apart last night and moved the reluctor to where I think it should be.
After I've ran it for a few miles I'll check it.

[Thorwon]

So I got the O2 sensor hooked up today and on the short test run I made it really helped it. I'll be driving it about 60 miles tomorrow, so we'll see how it does.
I'm running one O2 with it hooked to the input to both bank 1 sensor 1 and bank 2 sensor 1. I'm using bank 1 sensor 1 12v to heat it. I turned the DTC off for the other O2.
I've also got the fans running off the computer. :rockon:

[Fast355]

So I got the O2 sensor hooked up today and on the short test run I made it really helped it. I'll be driving it about 60 miles tomorrow, so we'll see how it does.
I'm running one O2 with it hooked to the input to both bank 1 sensor 1 and bank 2 sensor 1. I'm using bank 1 sensor 1 12v to heat it. I turned the DTC off for the other O2.
I've also got the fans running off the computer. :rockon:

I think the answer is even more simple. Put all 6 cylinders fuel injectors on Bank 1 and disable the codes for bank 2 sensors.

As for running a non computer auto trans. Flip the switch in the transmission tab to non computerized automatic and rewrite the entire file. Has worked on the numerous operating systems I have tried. Zero transmission related codes and you can even enable a single wire Park/Neutral switch.

[Thorwon]

I think the answer is even more simple. Put all 6 cylinders fuel injectors on Bank 1 and disable the codes for bank 2 sensors.

As for running a non computer auto trans. Flip the switch in the transmission tab to non computerized automatic and rewrite the entire file. Has worked on the numerous operating systems I have tried. Zero transmission related codes and you can even enable a single wire Park/Neutral switch.

Is it really that simple? So if I put all 6 cylinders on bank 1 it won't need input from bank 2 O2 sensors? I like it!!

Ok so I found the switch you're referring to. If I set it to non computerized automatic, what do I need to change? Everything under transmission?

[Thorwon]

Ok, I may have an issue with my computer. The "high speed cooling fan relay control" wire from the computer is not turning the fan on. It's wire # 33 in the green plug. It should ground the relay and turn the fan on at the set temp. When the engine gets to the set temp the relay clicks on and off repeatedly.
I've tried three different relays with the same result.

If I put my voltmeter on the wire it shows no voltage from battery neg to the wire. With battery pos to the wire it shows full battery voltage. Which is what it should show.
But when I hook the fan up it just clicks on and off repeatedly.

Do you think the circuit in the computer can be bad and give these symptoms?

[2xls1]

Can you post the bin file you are using?

[Thorwon]

Can you post the bin file you are using?


This is it.

[2xls1]

Looking at your bin with HP Tuners a couple things I see. First is you have the Fan 1 and Fan 2 turn on temps set to the same temperature. But that is not what is causing your problem. Lots of GM vehicles that didn't come with E-fans have the output pin that would control Fan 2 set to perform Auto Air Re-circulation. HP Tuners has the ability to switch that output to Fan 2 control. Here are some screen shots of your fan settings and how HP Tuners allow you to reassign that pin. See if whatever you are using to edit your bin has that ability. If not I can load your bin in a PCM and read it back out as a bin. HPT does not allow saving as a bin but I have other means of reading it back out as a bin.

[Thorwon]

Looking at your bin with HP Tuners a couple things I see. First is you have the Fan 1 and Fan 2 turn on temps set to the same temperature. But that is not what is causing your problem. Lots of GM vehicles that didn't come with E-fans have the output pin that would control Fan 2 set to perform Auto Air Re-circulation. HP Tuners has the ability to switch that output to Fan 2 control. Here are some screen shots of your fan settings and how HP Tuners allow you to reassign that pin. See if whatever you are using to edit your bin has that ability. If not I can load your bin in a PCM and read it back out as a bin. HPT does not allow saving as a bin but I have other means of reading it back out as a bin.

I think I found it.
17262

[2xls1]

Looks like it. Tunercat has it as just an Auto Air Recirc enable/disable.

[Thorwon]

Looks like it. Tunercat has it as just an Auto Air Recirc enable/disable.

That got it.
And I thank you for your help.
I have learned a LOT from ya'll on this site.