4L60E part throttle shift points

[JD1964]

Okay I'm still learning and thanks to those who have and will respond. I now have my WOT upshifts right where I want them in the Kickdown Mode tables.

On to the part throttle shifts and TCC settings. Below is the pic of how the tables are currently set. In driving the car, I would like the part time stuff to be a little looser, IE: stay in gear a little longer before shifting up and downshifting with a less TPS percentage.

I suppose I increase the upshift MPH blocks in the shift table and decrease the MPH blocks in the downshifts. Is this correct? Should I limit the difference for instance when comparing 2-3 up and 3-2 down? How far apart can those MPH blocks be before weird stuff happens?

Since I want a looser feel, can I do anything with the TCC settings as well? If so, what would you recommend?

Here's how the tables are now, before I make any changes.

[tayto]

have you heard of bluecat transmission tool? it's used by the LSx crowd but works for TBI stuff and should work for LT1 as well....

https://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=548319

[LeMarky Dissod]

I now have my WOT upshifts right where I want them in the Kickdown Mode tables.So long as the KickDown MpHs are ever so slightly under the KickDown RpMs, good to go.


On to the part throttle shifts and TCC settings.
Below is the pic of how the tables are currently set.
In driving the car, I would like the part time stuff to be a little looser, IE:
stay in gear a little longer before shifting up and downshifting with a less TPS percentage.

I suppose I increase the upshift MpH blocks in the shift table and decrease the MpH blocks in the downshifts. Is this correct?
Should I limit the difference for instance when comparing 2-3 up and 3-2 down? How far apart can those MpH blocks be before weird stuff happens?If you want it to stay in gear longer before upshifting, raise the 1Up2, 2Up3, and/or 3Up4 values in the appropriate TPS% spot(s).

When you say 'downshift with a less TPS percentage', do you mean a smaller CHANGE in TPS? Or do you want it to be less fun?
If you want it to be more eager to downshift, raise the 2Dn1, 3Dn2, and/or 4Dn3 values in the appropriate TPS%.
If you want it to be LESS eager to downshift, lower the 2Dn1, 3Dn2, and or 4Dn3 values in the appropriate TPS%.
With 3.73 in a lighter car that doesn't carry much, don't be afraid to get to 4th as early as 24MpH with low TPS% angles.
At 31% TPS% & over, start having fun if you like?

Regarding the difference between 2Up3 vs 3Dn2 - and/or 3Up4 vs 4Dn3 - the further apart the numbers are, the more your foot must increase to get a downshift.
With 3.73, you could spread the numbers far apart, if it doesn't carry much extra weight and you want to minimize excessive shifts and aim for MpGs.

I'm annoyed when a 4Dn3 is less than a 2Up3, and even more so when a 3Dn2 is less than a 1Up2.
When GM does this, your foot needs to move down a lot for any fun to happen.
No other number 'crossings' should ever need happen.

Since I want a looser feel, can I do anything with the TCC settings as well? If so, what would you recommend?Very generally speaking, 37% & over is where you'd probably unlock the TCC, even if you have not downshifted.
If you want a looser feel, raise the TCC Locks over the speeds where you want it to feel loose.
You can also raise the TCC Unlocks if you find the TCC locked during a deceleration and you prefer it unlocked.
Maybe you don't even want it to bother locking in 3rd at all? In which case just raise the Lock & Unlock numbers high enough so it never locks to begin with.

I personally sort out the shifts with the goal of only ever using 'D' under all but the most rare unusual conditions, before re-addressing TCC Locks & Unlocks.
Although you may prefer a looser feel, locking the TCC in 4th @ 31% TPS & under would improve MpGs.

[kur4o]

You will also want before a downshift occurs in 4th and 3rd, a tcc unlock to happen.
Especially in a cruising range.

So the curve should be give some throttle->tcc unlocks->you get some extra power->if you want more keep pushing the pedal a little more-> than a downshift happens.

You will also want to curve the shifting so it happens at given tps , for given rpm accross most shifting.

For example dial the curve, so at 20% tps for example you shift all the gears at 2000rpms.

That is why you start with some good dialed Gm stock tabes and improve from there. All gm curves are pretty good dialed for starting point.

[LeMarky Dissod]

You will also want before a downshift occurs in 4th and 3rd, a TCC unlock to happen. Especially in a cruising range.

So the curve should be give some throttle-> TCC unlocks-> you get some extra power-> if you want more keep pushing the pedal a little more-> then a downshift happens.Yes, the TCC should always unlock before a downshift. Whether or not one forgets to enable the flag / switch that enforces unlocking the TCC before a downshift, the TCC Unlock in 4th must be at least 1MpH higher than the corresponding 4Dn3, and TCC Unlock in 3rd must be at least 1MpH higher than the corresponding 3Dn2.
With 3.73 in 4th, you may have enough power after unlocking the TCC, that you can stay in 4th happily for a certain TPS% range.
With 3.73 in 3rd, you may have enough power after unlocking the TCC, that you can stay in 3rd happily for a certain TPS% range - if you lock the TCC in 3rd at all?
It's more efficient, especially under 31% TPS, but you may not like the feel.
You will also want to curve the shifting so it happens at given TPS, for given RpM across most shifting.

For example dial the curve, so at 20% TPS for example you shift all the gears at 2000RpM.

That is why you start with some good dialed GM stock tables and improve from there. All GM curves are pretty good dialed for starting point.I'm not sure I precisely agree with this, but largely because most of my experience customizing shift points came from a Caprice wagon with a damnt 2.563 axle during GWB's 2nd term.
Started out avoiding 4th gear (1.794) entirely until I sorted out the other 3 gears to my satisfaction. (Used to refer to it as a 3L60E, tongue in cheek.)
Never bothered checking RpMs back then, I simply wanted it to never upshift early, never make me wait for a downshift, and reduce unnecessary shifts as much as possible.
Tailoring the 3Dn2 shifts under 37% TPS on flat ground so that it never hinted at lugging was where the most time was spent.

3.73 has so much better potential for a far more subtle and/or versatile shift map - and that assumes you only bother using the 'Normal' shift map.
If you decide to also use the 'Performance' shift map, you can have a real Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde situation …

[In-Tech]

I am so glad to hear of you all fixing. The trans calibration can be as hard or harder to figure out correctly than the engine calibration. Good on all of you for noticing. :)

[JD1964]

Thanks to everyone contributing information to this thread.

Since starting this thread I was also working on a part throttle light load stumble which was affecting how my current trans settings were behaving. After messing around with EEhack controls trying different things to see if I could narrow down the miss, I eventually reset the BLM's and that made the light load stumbling go away. I'm not sure exactly how that fixed it but it did.

I also reset my throttle stop position and TPS voltage to about as high as I could without causing the error of excessive TPS voltage at WOT. What I had noticed in EEhack is that the throttle position percentage had a dead spot from idle until the throttle was cracked open about 3/8" off the stop. By opening the throttle blades some I was able to shorten the overall travel from idle position up to WOT. Then I set my TPS voltage to about .55 at idle which limits my WOT voltage to 4.70 ish. Now the TPS % opening is reporting in EEhack almost right away when bringing the throttle off the stop. My set idle speed is 800 and the IAC counts are 20 ish.

Those changes in fixing the light load stumble and resetting throttle stop and TPS voltage made my transmission behave much better at part throttle with its current settings.
Even though the trans is behaving better I still want to loosen it up a bit. I want it to stay in gears longer in upshifting and be more eager to downshift with a little less throttle application. I'm pretty sure I understand the explanations you all have been entering and discussing in this thread including the importance of TCC setting in relation to the shift points. I'll tinker with a bin and see what happens.

The car has great power and tq now. I came off a light at WOT earlier and the posi was holding traction good enough I experienced some fairly rough wheel hop. So I guess wheel hop solution is in the making.

[JD1964]

I have not heard of it. Is it a stand alone utility or can it be used inside of another program like TunerPro ? I’m using TunerPro now and it has what I need. I’m just new at it so I’m learning as I go.

[JD1964]

Yes, the TCC should always unlock before a downshift. Whether or not one forgets to enable the flag / switch that enforces unlocking the TCC before a downshift, the TCC Unlock in 4th must be at least 1MpH higher than the corresponding 4Dn3, and TCC Unlock in 3rd must be at least 1MpH higher than the corresponding 3Dn2.


Where in TunerPro is the switch that enforces TCC unlock before downshift? I cant find it

[NomakeWan]

Where in TunerPro is the switch that enforces TCC unlock before downshift? I cant find it
This is because steveo's EEX, while very lovely and useful for general tuning, does not include definitions for a lot of the super nitty-gritty code. This is because a lot of the super nitty-gritty code is not useful to general tuning folks. But for those of us who want to do nitty-gritty things, you'll want to use kur4o's EEXTRA definition instead.

17040

[In-Tech]

This is because steveo's EEX, while very lovely and useful for general tuning, does not include definitions for a lot of the super nitty-gritty code. This is because a lot of the super nitty-gritty code is not useful to general tuning folks. But for those of us who want to do nitty-gritty things, you'll want to use kur4o's EEXTRA definition instead.

17040:jfj::happy:

[JD1964]

I got my part time shifts modified and loaded. My TCC unlocks are well above the downshifts so I think I'm ok without access to the forced unlock feature for now. I'll checkout the EEXTRA definition sometime soon either way.

Of all the changes I initially made I only went back and changed one. It was the 2-1 downshift. I had increased those numbers about 4mph and it would shift down to first on a slowdown and turn in residential neighborhood type driving. That was a bit annoying and not needed so I lowered those back to where they were. On the upshift from stop I like the delay from 1-2. It lets you roll out a bit more and stay in 1st before slamming the throttle if the spirit moves you. Much better that way in my opinion.

On everything else shift point wise, I raised the values 4-6 mph up to the 37% throttle positions and none of that caused any unwanted behavior for my preference.

On the TCC's, I eliminated the 3rd gear lockup altogether. Since my upshifts are delayed with the other settings I find it unnecessary to have lockup in 3rd. In my opinion it makes more pleasant driving experience at lower speeds in 3rd and will also reduce wear and tear on the lockup mechanism. I also delayed the 4th gear lockup until 50mph and set the unlock at 47mph. It's a stock tq converter so low stall speed, therefore I dont need excessive lockup activity to rescue me from anything. I also have an aux trans cooler. I run the fluid through the radiator first, then the cooler and back to the trans.

It's a very nice light throttle driving experience now. If any of this seems like a wrong approach to anyone, I'd like to hear your opinion on it. Thanks again everyone.

[LeMarky Dissod]

I got my part time shifts modified and loaded. My TCC unlocks are well above the downshifts so I think I'm ok without access to the forced unlock feature for now.
I'll checkout the EEXTRA definition sometime soon either way.Your TCC Unlocks need only be 1MpH over their corresponding downshifts. Margins larger than that are up to you to suit your taste.

Of all the changes I initially made I only went back and changed one. It was the 2-1 downshift.
I had increased those numbers about 4MpH and it would shift down to first on a slowdown and turn in residential neighborhood type driving.
That was a bit annoying and not needed so I lowered those back to where they were.
On the upshift from stop I like the delay from 1-2. It lets you roll out a bit more and stay in 1st before slamming the throttle if the spirit moves you.
Much better that way in my opinion.At the very low speeds where I might get away with treating a Stop Sign like a Yield sign (unless it's a Stop Sign Trap!), I actually avoid the 2Dn1 immediately followed by a 1Up2 by lowering the 2Dn1 thresholds like so:
00.00% @ 5MpH
06.25% @ 6MpH
12.50% @ 7MpH
18.75% @ 8MpH
25.00% @ 9MpH
31.25% @ 10MpH

3.73 axle handles it effortlessly. If I want 1st, I still don't need to push much to get the 2Dn1 shift, but most 2Dn1-1Up2 shifts are really unnecessary …
… unless I actually bother to put my foot down of course.

On everything else shift point wise, I raised the values 4-6MpH up to the 37% throttle positions and none of that caused any unwanted behavior for my preference.This is a typical occurrence. GM really wants those upshifts ASAP, but they're usually not worth more than 1MpG or 2MpG.
It's not easy to resist the idea that, the more unnecessary shifts that can be avoided, the longer the transmission will last before it needs a rebuild.
(By all means, if I'm wrong, please teach me why!)

On the TCC's, I eliminated 3rd gear lockup altogether. Since my upshifts are delayed with the other settings I find it unnecessary to have lockup in 3rd.
In my opinion it makes more pleasant driving experience at lower speeds in 3rd and will also reduce wear and tear on the lockup mechanism.
I also delayed the 4th gear lockup until 50MpH and set the unlock at 47MpH. It's a stock tq converter so low stall speed, therefore I don't need excessive lockup activity to rescue me from anything.You MAY be able to get away with locking the TCC in 3rd at TPS% angles that are so low that you would not notice / feel the TCC.
I doubt the wear and tear on the TCC would be significant at, say, under 18.75% TPS.
That said, if it feels better to you, it's not like it'd be worth more than 1MpG or 2MpG to lock the TCC at such low speeds & low TPS% angles.
In other words, I get why you don't lock it in 3rd.
I'll similarly suggest that, in 4th, you might get away with locking the TCC at very low TPS% angles and road speeds - but again, suit your tastes.

I also have an aux trans cooler. I run the fluid through the radiator first, then the cooler and back to the trans.You only need to run the fluid 'through' the radiator to warm it up in cold weather.
While your winters don't get under freezing temps, you only need external ATF cooling.

It's a very nice light throttle driving experience now. If any of this seems like a wrong approach to anyone, I'd like to hear your opinion on it.
Thanks again everyone.Don't think the word 'wrong' really applies here. Try things you might not like just so you'll actually learn if you were wrong or not - but that's from your perspective; it's your car.

Only thing I can think of that might make you think twice is whether or not you have access to the Performance Shift Table.

[LeMarky Dissod]

Separate subject:
It's a stock torque converter so low stall speed, therefore I don't need excessive lockup activity to rescue me from anything.
I also have an aux trans cooler. I run the fluid through the radiator first, then the cooler and back to the trans.If I'm not mistaken, kur4o's latest definition file has access to the ability to turn on the radiator fans based on ATF temps.
This is pretty fricken schweet.

[WASyL]

Separate subject:If I'm not mistaken, kur4o's latest definition file has access to the ability to turn on the radiator fans based on ATF temps.
This is pretty fricken schweet.

yes he did that patch in my request and it works, for still unknow reason to me sometimes th fan won't go out untill shutting down the engine, not a big thing but this might happen.

beest regards

[JD1964]

Separate subject:If I'm not mistaken, kur4o's latest definition file has access to the ability to turn on the radiator fans based on ATF temps.
This is pretty fricken schweet.

Werd

[JD1964]

Only thing I can think of that might make you think twice is whether or not you have access to the Performance Shift Table.

Thanks for the analysis of my overall mentality in the shift timing regard. I had been thinking of the performance table. At the last boneyard visit I even snagged a momentary on / off switch in the form of a rear window defroster switch from an 86 Cutlass S. Lights up when on too. :-)

I dont imaging changing the shift timing much with performance mode though. Maybe some data for some harsh gear chirping action that I can turn back off. Right now all my pressures are stock.

[yoheer]

yes he did that patch in my request and it works, for still unknow reason to me sometimes th fan won't go out untill shutting down the engine, not a big thing but this might happen.

beest regards
Where to get this xdf file? Is it a new one file?

[NomakeWan]

Where to get this xdf file? Is it a new one file?

http://gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?5029-The-ultimate-LT1-EE-patch-thread&p=89095&viewfull=1#post89095

[yoheer]

http://gearhead-efi.com/Fuel-Injection/showthread.php?5029-The-ultimate-LT1-EE-patch-thread&p=89095&viewfull=1#post89095

Thnx