Fouls plugs, new injectors

[sachem]

Good evening all,
I hope I have this in the right forum. Guys, I need your help. I've been trying to get my LS swap running for a while now and no success. It ran well on my engine stand, but after I put it in the car I couldn't get it to run steady or run at all, foot on throttle or not. After pulling my hair out for a while, I decided to think logically. First I checked injector firing order and found 1 & 7 swapped (don't ask how), then I checked all coils- all in correct sequence. Then checked all injectors, found 4 of 8 bad....Since i needed injectors, I decided to use 8.1L marine injectors. Installed them and within seconds the engine was flooded and plugs soaked. Replaced plugs, started, same thing. disconnect injectors and ran ok for 2 seconds, then no fuel. Do I need to change any scale or setting for these injectors? To what? Are they bad? I haven't even gotten the engine to idle yet, so I have no data to go by. Where do I go from here? Can someone set me in the right direction. I will attach my bin file in case it is needed. Sorry for the lengthy post, but it is as short as it can be and still give enough information.

Thanks to anyone taking the time to help me.

[B52Bombardier1]

Why not put in a set of stock, original injectors and go from there? Do you have the data sheet for your 8.1 injectors? The PCM and the BIN file has no way of knowing that you put in for injectors unless you tell it.

What mods for your engine?

What engine?

What OS number is embedded inside your attached BIN file above?

Rick

[sachem]

Why not put in a set of stock, original injectors and go from there? Do you have the data sheet for your 8.1 injectors? The PCM and the BIN file has no way of knowing that you put in for injectors unless you tell it.

What mods for your engine?

What engine?

What OS number is embedded inside your attached BIN file above?

Rick
Hello Rick,
The OS 12587603. It is an LQ9 with a cam, headers,etc.
Some months ago you helped me switch me os to the one above.
I am in the process of getting the stock injectors now and see what happens.
How do you tell the ECM what injectors you have?
Thanks,
Tom

[2xls1]

You have a 05 Silverado AWD LQ9 6.0L VIN in a 04 6.0L LQ4 OS but you said it is a swap vehicle so not sure what you have. What fuel rail and fuel system do you have? Does it have a vacuum referenced regulator on the rail with a return line going back to the tank or is it a dead head fuel rail with no return. And are you trying to run it with open exhaust (open headers)? I can fix your bin for the 8.1L injectors.

[sachem]

You have a 05 Silverado AWD LQ9 6.0L VIN in a 04 6.0L LQ4 OS but you said it is a swap vehicle so not sure what you have. What fuel rail and fuel system do you have? Does it have a vacuum referenced regulator on the rail with a return line going back to the tank or is it a dead head fuel rail with no return. And are you trying to run it with open exhaust (open headers)? I can fix your bin for the 8.1L injectors.

Good morning,
The engine is an LQ9 out of a 2005 Escalade (I pulled it myself) with a 12592618 OS. There was no adx file for it. That is when Iswapped the OS to 12587603 .I would appreciate if you could fix the bin file. I feel like I am spinning my wheels and not understanding what I thought I understood. I have a returnless fuel rail. I installed a 4L80E and at this time the headers are open. I plan on getting nitrous in the future. Also, what parameters need changing for things like this, I want to figure this out. I can compare bins after you fix mine. As before, thanks...

[B52Bombardier1]

Hello,

The Parameter Tree view within Tuner Pro RT, when using a 7603 BIN and the 7603 XDF, has a "Fuel Injectors" expandable area with seven different injector parameter values that you need to insert. This is VERY EASY to see . . . . . . do you have a copy of Tuner Pro RT?

You need the data sheet for those numbers but it appears that 2xls1 is doing that for you.

Rick

[sachem]

Hello,

The Parameter Tree view within Tuner Pro RT, when using a 7603 BIN and the 7603 XDF, has a "Fuel Injectors" expandable area with seven different injector parameter values that you need to insert. This is VERY EASY to see . . . . . . do you have a copy of Tuner Pro RT?

You need the data sheet for those numbers but it appears that 2xls1 is doing that for you.

Rick
I do have Tuner pro RT, but no data sheet.

[2xls1]

Good morning,
The engine is an LQ9 out of a 2005 Escalade (I pulled it myself) with a 12592618 OS. There was no adx file for it. That is when Iswapped the OS to 12587603 .I would appreciate if you could fix the bin file. I feel like I am spinning my wheels and not understanding what I thought I understood. I have a returnless fuel rail. I installed a 4L80E and at this time the headers are open. I plan on getting nitrous in the future. Also, what parameters need changing for things like this, I want to figure this out. I can compare bins after you fix mine. As before, thanks...

First of all you absolutely can not run open exhaust with a closed loop fuel system and O2 sensors. Even with correct injector data it will flood the cylinders with fuel when it goes into closed loop. If you must run it with open exhaust unplug the O2 sensors so it will stay in open loop. I'll have the corrected bin a little later.

[2xls1]

Here is your bin file with no other changes except the 8.1L injector data in it. The injector data came from a 2005 1T Silverado with a 8.1L.

[In-Tech]

Does he have 8.1 Truck or 8.1 Marine injectors? Huge difference and no vac or vac regulator? :innocent2:

[sachem]

Does he have 8.1 Truck or 8.1 Marine injectors? Huge difference and no vac or vac regulator? :innocent2:
Marine, no vac

[sachem]

Thanks 2xls1,
I am downloading now and will run car tomorrow when I get home from work. The neighbors won't be too happy to hear open headers now. I am only running the headers open while i am completing all the work I have left on the car. I will disconnect the O2's as you said. I'll post results.
Tom

[sachem]

Hello,

The Parameter Tree view within Tuner Pro RT, when using a 7603 BIN and the 7603 XDF, has a "Fuel Injectors" expandable area with seven different injector parameter values that you need to insert. This is VERY EASY to see . . . . . . do you have a copy of Tuner Pro RT?

You need the data sheet for those numbers but it appears that 2xls1 is doing that for you.

Rick

Regarding the injector parameter values, other than using known good values, how do you know what base numbers to use by knowing injector specs?

[2xls1]

Here is your bin file with 8.1L MARINE injector data in it.

[B52Bombardier1]

Regarding the injector parameter values, other than using known good values, how do you know what base numbers to use by knowing injector specs?

If you don't have the data sheet that came with the injectors from their manufacturer, take the injector part number and go to the manufacturers web site and search for the data. Nobody does perfect guesswork on this sort of thing. Those seven variables have too much variability in themselves to be guessing. Seek out the data on the sheet to make your life easier because PCM programming is hard enough as it is without adding random guesswork into the mix.

Rick

[sachem]

Here is your bin file with 8.1L MARINE injector data in it.

Ok so I uploaded the revised bin. Started the car, still too rich (O2's disconnected). Not dumping raw fuel anymore but still too rich. The idle doesn't stay steady. If I hold the throttle it will stay steady for a short time, while I hold it, then will speed up and then shut down. When I restart it I have to hold the throttle and if I try to let it idle it drops very low for a couple of seconds then dies. Don't know what to do next. Do I have to adjust injector data?
I have DBW, btw, so I can't turn a screw to increase idle speed.

[2xls1]

Is this a stock LQ9? Stock cam? Using a MAF? At this point you need to be able to use a scanner that datalogs and be able to interpret what the sensors are showing. Have you verified fuel pressure at the rail with a fuel pressure tester?

[sachem]

Is this a stock LQ9? Stock cam? Using a MAF? At this point you need to be able to use a scanner that datalogs and be able to interpret what the sensors are showing. Have you verified fuel pressure at the rail with a fuel pressure tester?
Not stock cam. Fuel pressure dead on @ 58psi, verified with gauge. Yes, has MAF. I have a scanner, I believe it datalogs. Otherwise I will try the PCM hammer datalogger. What do you suggest for datalogging? What program do I use to read the logs? I'm using tuner pro and ls droid for tuning. I need to figure this stuff out.

Tom

[sachem]

I need to understand what are the steps to tuning. What do you doin what order to complete a proper tune?

[2xls1]

Well saying you has a 230/235 cam would have been nice to know. No way that will idle on a stock tune. I'll edit your bin for that and it should at least idle then. I hope you put a looser converter in that transmission. It's going to need one to idle in gear with that big of a cam and the higher idle speed it will need. There are a lot of youtube videos showing step to tuning. I've been doing it since 2004 with HP Tuners and Tunercat having tuned thousands of vehicles. I learned it by doing it. Having vehicles on dynos. Being able to see what works and what doesn't Some of it is trial and error to see what works. You have to have a good understanding if how an ICE works and them what the tables in the calibration are controlling. You really have to to lots of tunes to get good at it.

[2xls1]

Do you really have 4.88 gears and a 35.28" tall tire like is in your bin? And give me an email address. I'm not going to post the bin here but I'll email it to you.

[sachem]

Well saying you has a 230/235 cam would have been nice to know. No way that will idle on a stock tune. I'll edit your bin for that and it should at least idle then. I hope you put a looser converter in that transmission. It's going to need one to idle in gear with that big of a cam and the higher idle speed it will need. There are a lot of youtube videos showing step to tuning. I've been doing it since 2004 with HP Tuners and Tunercat having tuned thousands of vehicles. I learned it by doing it. Having vehicles on dynos. Being able to see what works and what doesn't Some of it is trial and error to see what works. You have to have a good understanding if how an ICE works and them what the tables in the calibration are controlling. You really have to to lots of tunes to get good at it.

Thanks 2xls1,
I really appreciate your help. I do have a looser converter. I have been watching a ton of you tube videos, but come away more confused because I am not sure of the order in which things should be adjusted and I am not sure what "values" I "should" be seeing. i have been building cars for many years, but this is my first EFI tune. It's a lot different than tuning carb vehicles. I will look at the changes you make to my bin and compare the previous bin. That should give me some insight to what I should be looking for. I was also confused on how to use throttle area to control idle speed and how to tune MAF. I will continue to look at youtube videos and hopefully you won't mind me leaning on you a little more.
Thank you
Tom

[sachem]

I have 4.88 's.. yes Tires are 275/60/15. Should I post the email address here?

[sachem]

should be 28" ?

[2xls1]

Should I post the email address here?

Yes..

[sachem]

Yes..
Tsaccente@optonline.net

[2xls1]

Check your mail.

[sachem]

Check your mail.

Unbelievable!!! The car runs! When I first started it, it started on the first crank. It ran around 17-1800 rpm. I did some logging, the file is kind of crude, looking for more info on datalogging. I noticed the log file said it was going 7mph. I have the car on jackstands, no shifter yet, front end disassembled. Sure enough it was in gear. I shut it off, put in park and restarted. Idles around 775 rpm. What a difference. I'm looking over the compare files in tuner pro to see what was changed so that I may get a better understanding of what is being controlled by what. Still a little rich, but that's to be expected, since this is just a preliminary tune. I'm just happy it runs.. I also found out that my cooling fan is not up to the task of cooling the engine, so need to correct that issue. I noticed the idle hangs when I "goose" the throttle. Based on some of the videos i watched on you tube, I'm thinking to bring the timing down some? But need more data first. How do you know what numbers to plug into the MAF Grams/sec? Is it a manufacturer spec? If the injector PW is shortened, will it lean out some. How would I use a wide band with tuner pro? I probably should wait til I put an exhaust system on before fine tuning? How do you interpret the numbers in the main ve table, what do they related to? Lot to learn, Thanks a million 2xls1, thanks a million!

[2xls1]

Get an exhaust system on it first so you can plug in the O2s and it can go into closed loop. What I sent you was something to just get it running on it's own without throttle input. Those idle issues and hanging idle are easy fixes. Probably just take out some idle air flow. I didn't change any of the fan settings in your bin because I didn't know what your fan setup is (single or dual fans) or what kind of harness you are using. I saw you had already set it to auxiliary fans and had set turn on and off temps. I never use that setting. Even if it is a single fan I set it to 2 fans. The MAF table is calibrated for a stock GM 5 wire MAF. That and the VE table can be tweaked once the vehicle is road worthy and can be driven. There is just so much you can do with it on jackstands. It's troubling that it started in gear from a safety standpoint. You need to figure out some kind of park/neutral safety switch because it doesn't sound like you have one. Also if you haven't already, take the throttle body off and give it a through cleaning front and back side around the bore and blade. I like to see them spotless. It is a very often overlooked maintenance item and a dirty TB can cause idle issues on ETC systems. Also be aware that every tuner has different ways of doing things. I've developed my way after years of doing it on more vehicles than I can count. My methods may be different than what another tuner may suggest or what you see on youtube. Also not very many people use Tunerpro. Most tutorials you are going to find are going to be based on using HP Tuners for both tuning and scanning so tables and nomenclature will probably be different. I gave you a good starting point. Good luck with your project.

[2xls1]

And on the running rich, remember it is in open loop with your open exhaust and no O2s. If you are going by exhaust smell you really don't know what it is. With the amount of overlap that cam has and no cats it is going to have a fuel smell at idle. Lots of unburnt air and fuel going out the exhaust at overlap. Only real way to tell is with a wide band O2 in the exhaust. Once you the exhaust sealed up and the O2s plugged in it will go into closed loop and with fuel trimming should run at stoich.

[sachem]

Get an exhaust system on it first so you can plug in the O2s and it can go into closed loop. What I sent you was something to just get it running on it's own without throttle input. Those idle issues and hanging idle are easy fixes. Probably just take out some idle air flow. I didn't change any of the fan settings in your bin because I didn't know what your fan setup is (single or dual fans) or what kind of harness you are using. I saw you had already set it to auxiliary fans and had set turn on and off temps. I never use that setting. Even if it is a single fan I set it to 2 fans. The MAF table is calibrated for a stock GM 5 wire MAF. That and the VE table can be tweaked once the vehicle is road worthy and can be driven. There is just so much you can do with it on jackstands. It's troubling that it started in gear from a safety standpoint. You need to figure out some kind of park/neutral safety switch because it doesn't sound like you have one. Also if you haven't already, take the throttle body off and give it a through cleaning front and back side around the bore and blade. I like to see them spotless. It is a very often overlooked maintenance item and a dirty TB can cause idle issues on ETC systems. Also be aware that every tuner has different ways of doing things. I've developed my way after years of doing it on more vehicles than I can count. My methods may be different than what another tuner may suggest or what you see on youtube. Also not very many people use Tunerpro. Most tutorials you are going to find are going to be based on using HP Tuners for both tuning and scanning so tables and nomenclature will probably be different. I gave you a good starting point. Good luck with your project.
2xls1, regarding prk/neut switch- i have one built into my shifter assy. That will be the next install item. I agree, a clean throttle body is important, so I will clean it once more. Regarding fans, i have one fan, but it looks as though i made need a dual speed fan. I am wired through the factory wire harness that was thinned of all unnecessary sensors. Do you suggest I purchase HP Tuners or continue to decipher hp tuner nomenclature? I value your input.

Tom

[2xls1]

What you chose to tune and data log with is up to you. This forum is for those that are willing to put up with a little less user friendliness, not all vehicle OS supported but cost less to use tuning solution. I don't have much time behind the wheel of Tunerpro. I used it years ago when I was doing some OBD1 tuning, All my OBD2 tuning has been with HP Tuners and Tunercat. I can pretty much do the same things with Tunercat and HP Tuners on the editor side with Tunercar being a little more cumbersome to use with the trade off being it was cheaper to license vehicles. No scanner included with Tunercat but having HP Tuners I could scan with it and edit with Tunercat. Over time I've grown to use HP Tuners 95% of the time with using Tunercat on the vehicles I don't have model year licenses with HPT. A commercial product like HP Tuners has more support, more users/help scanner/editor designed to work together but the cost is higher. As a beginner it's going to be a steep learning curve no matter what you use. HP Tuners would probably take some of that difficulty out but it is still going to have to be learned. It doesn't come with instructions.